From NATO to Telco — Building Enterprise Customer Value That Wins Awards
Why Listen
In this episode, we sit down with Mirella-Marie Katarina Radman, former NATO project lead, now leading enterprise success at one of Canada’s largest telcos. We talk trust, renewals, and what Customer Value Management (CVM) teams can borrow to win in long-game, high-stakes accounts.
Tune in to hear how to lead with trust, plan for renewals years in advance, and build value that doesn’t just convert but lasts.
5 Lessons CVMs Can Borrow from Building Enterprise Customer Value That Wins Awards
1. Sell Trust First, Not Products
Enterprise clients don’t buy features — they invest in confidence. Building trust is the critical step in any engagement. Lesson for CVMs to borrow: shift from product-focused offers to trust-based conversations. Begin discussions with customer challenges, not product details.
2. Treat Renewals Like a 2-Year Campaign
Enterprise renewals aren’t quarterly events — they’re long-term strategies. Decisions happen far in advance. Lesson for CVMs to borrow: use customer lifecycle data to identify risk of contract renewal early. Build engagement before churn happens.
3. Be the Voice of the Customer
Use insights to advocate for customers with the delivery team. Your main job is to make sure their voice is heard internally, not to be one who fixes the product. Lesson for CVMs to borrow: give internal teams the full picture of a customer. Use structured insights to align delivery and value.
4. Log Everything, Relentlessly
Big accounts span years and roles. Without documentation, value gets lost. Lesson for CVMs to borrow: treat your Customer Data Platform like a living record of the relationship. Use historical data to offer the next best action and deliver it at the right time.
5. Lead with Human Connection
Behind every decision is a person. Trust and empathy still close the deal. Lesson for CVMs to borrow: give your frontline teams access to customer context. Make every interaction feel like a conversation with a friend.
Episode Highlights
- From NATO to Telco: Katarina’s career shift from diplomacy to telecom leadership
- Early lessons in trust: building value before “customer success” was a term
- Enterprise lifecycles: why planning starts 2 years before renewals
- Navigating 10–20 stakeholders per deal: enterprise account reality
- Building trust that scales: what wins million-dollar relationships
- Documentation as a strategy: CRM as a living customer record
- Day Two is everything: defining success after the contract is signed
- Being the voice of the customer: translating feedback into action
- The human side of enterprise: empathy still drives decisions
- Recognized success: winning internal awards for long-term impact
Recommendations for Growth as a Professional
Sharpen your enterprise thinking by shadowing long-cycle deals. Learn to work backward from a three-year renewal. Practice listening more than pitching — real trust starts there.
Also, revisit customer notes from two years ago. If they still hold up, you’re on the right track. And don’t overlook tools like CRM or CDP — not as a reporting tool, but as a living map of the customer relationship.
Final Words
Enterprise success isn’t about scale — it’s about stamina. The deals are bigger, but so are the risks, the timelines, and the stakes. Stay close to your stakeholders, and even closer to their decision-making cycles. Be the calm through the chaos. And remember: the moment the contract is signed, your real job begins. Customer value isn’t a destination — it’s something you re-earn, over and over again.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00:06] CVM Stories: Welcome to CVM Stories, the podcast on customer value management. Together, we explore how companies can be more successful and the customer is happier through the use of latest customer value management techniques. Learn key commercial and analytical insights from telecoms, retail, finance and other industries that drive CVM forward.
[00:00:18:20] Egidijus: Hi, I’m your host, Egidijus. Today, our guest is Katarina Radman, a customer success executive at one of the largest telecoms in Canada. Katarina will share her invaluable lessons on customer success and value management for large enterprise organizations. Get ready to learn a lot. So let’s dive in. Hi, Katarina.
[00:00:45:00] Katarina: Good morning, Egidijus.
[00:00:46:19] Egidijus: It’s, uh, it’s really good to to to see you to talk to, uh, to you today. We are like, uh, I don’t know, in 7 or 8 hours difference in totally different sides of the world.
[00:00:58:19] Katarina: That’s right. But it feels like, uh, you’re just across the table here. I know I’m in North America, and you’re in in Europe. Uh, in a lovely country. Very envious. Um, and I’m very happy to to be talking about customer success with you today, Egidijus and Exacaster.
[00:01:15:19] Egidijus: So, uh, thank you, Katarina, for joining. Um, could you tell us a little bit about, uh, your career story so that, uh, the people who would be listening, uh, would slightly better understand your context? Where are you coming from?
[00:01:33:06] Katarina: Absolutely. Yeah. I’ve had a very diverse career. Um, my foray into customer success zigzagged a little bit through my my early years. Um, but I’m happy to share with you that I began my career, uh, ostensibly in North America and Europe, working for NATO in a very unique and specific kind of role, which, you know, we’re talking close to 25 years ago, The term customer success didn’t even exist back then in the way that we know it today. And at the time, I was very junior, you know, just out of school, I’d gone to the United States following my master’s and my B.A., which I completed in Canada. I arrived in Washington, you know, eager and fresh to start in the mid 1990s. Uh, Clinton was the president. I distinctly remember that. And in my role, I worked as a program and project manager and coordinator for a division of NATO, which at the time was called partnership for peace. Um, what it did, what this program was, was earmarked to do was really, you know, work very closely with the Central and Eastern European countries that had emerged out of the Warsaw Pact and were newly independent. So if you think of the Baltic states, Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, um, you know, a few of the former Eastern Bloc states that are their neighbors. We were working on democratization projects, capacity building things of that nature in conjunction with the European Union.
[00:03:00:09] Katarina: It was a fantastic experience and you really kind of hit the ground running. You were doing a lot of communications and project management, but in working in partnership directly with the governments of these countries, there is a very unique element of what I would call customer success. So the metrics of how you would gauge success. What that looked like from a feedback perspective and you know, that whole hygiene funnel. I did that for about six years until the program shut down, because the majority of the countries I supported had at this point already entered NATO, and they’re still in that organization, which is fantastic to see. So what had happened was I applied for something called a Fulbright fellowship on as a NATO employee, and that took me to Harvard. So I went back to Boston and I studied communications and communications management, which, uh, with with real focus on technology, because I knew I would be returning to Canada when that was completed. And I did begin my technology career in Canada in the mid 2000, working primarily with software companies, technology companies. This was kind of the early days of SMS and MMS technology, so I was fortunate to enter that field. Yeah, you remember that? Yeah. Um, a little bit of a foot way into customer success as it was known then from the product management side of things.
[00:04:22:08] Katarina: Um, and then I went into I worked for a very large Canadian company, which kind of made its mark and had patent rights for MMS and SMS. From there I went to American Express Concierge. I was there for a few years, and that role led to a very iconic role with, you know, what we call the Canadian New York Times. It’s Canada’s national news organization, The Globe and Mail. Uh, again, digital products, subscription products, a little bit of product management more. So the customer success side because my clients were so diverse, and it was in that role that I was introduced to the organization, which I’m so proud to be with today. It’s one of the three large Canadian telcos. We’ll get to that in another podcast. Um, but this is where I am currently as a customer success executive. So really blending and marrying those fields that I have a strong background in, which is communications with clients, program and project management with those clients, and a huge focus on, um, you know, the metrics and, and, and the things that you need to do to be successful. Um, when you’re client facing and that’s what brought me into customer success in the last ten years of my life.
[00:05:39:09] Egidijus: Uh, Katrina, you are in a very, very interesting area because, uh, if I understand correctly, you are working with large enterprise organizations and you are kind of working with this customer Success function. Could you give us a little bit of a taste? What does it mean, uh, to, uh, manage a customer success for large enterprise? You know.
[00:06:04:21] Katarina: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, it’s it’s it’s a very unique and very, um, honorable role. You’re working with large customers that have, um, you know, an employee footprint of anywhere from 500 to, you know, a thousand. And more often, a lot more. Um, I’m very fortunate in the sense that I have a nice split of customers today. So I have segments that touch, you know, um, technology. I have a lot of segments that touch healthcare, um, which is an interesting segment on its own. Um, what the role really looks like is a lot of, um, you know, funnel management, you’re really looking at the data of what these customers are are doing. How are they interacting with you? What kinds of purchases are they making? So from a loyalty and retention perspective, I’d say 25% of my time, sometimes even more is really occupied with looking at the habits that the customer has, you know, unveiled a lot of the role is really managing expectations with the customer, guiding them through the life cycle, the journey, the buying cycle. And that’s interesting as well, because as you get to know these customers, you see trends begin to emerge. Many of these large enterprise customers have a life cycle of, you know, 25 to 36 months when it comes to purchasing. These are huge decisions for them because you’re, you know, dealing with the millions and there are many stakeholders that are involved. So the buying process will will take a little bit longer than it would possibly in other segments. Um, another large, you know, portion of the job is really that customer relationship building, um, points of contacts will change. You know, you’ll build a strong relationship with somebody at the executive level who might leave or be replaced.
[00:07:54:09] Katarina: And so it’s really a lot of that, um, relationship building, uh, and networking as well. But I’d say them, if I was to look at the real crux of what makes it unique is at the enterprise level, you are definitely looking at how can we retain them, right? How can we retain that base? But at the same time, what additional pieces and context of value add can you provide? Because they’re often going to come to you and say, well, it’s interesting, I’ve been your customer now for ten years, but I heard, you know, from a competitor or a colleague at another organization that ostensibly your organization offered them a better deal as a net new customer than you would have offered me as a loyal customer. So how do you counteract that sentiment? Um, and on the flip side, when I look at those trends and that data and their habits, how can I use the data to make more informed decisions about this customer. Um, at, you know, certain stages in that lifecycle throughout the quarters and that that really is the role between what I’ve just described and, you know, the day and the week. There are other things that come in, but I’d say the the customer success role should really be focused on, um, how do we retain that customer? Because it’s a lot more difficult to, you know, regain them once you’ve lost them. But at the same time, when you have them, what can you continue to do to improve that value add and that experience so that you’re honoring their loyalty? Uh, throughout the lifecycle?
[00:09:25:10] Egidijus: From my perspective, I have way more experience in, let’s say, consumer side or SMB side by side, where, you know, you think about, okay, the contract, we need to prolong the contract. So it’s like we have 2 or 3 months left till the end of the contract. Then we shoot some campaigns and that’s. And that’s it. You know, it seems that your world is way, way different things like you have like a 2 or 3 years planning in advance, basically. So it’s like more like a chess game, if I understand you correctly. Kind of. How do you set up for this? Uh, yeah. Long process.
[00:10:07:20] Katarina: That’s that’s a fascinating point, actually. I’m glad you mentioned that because, like you, I also had a period of time in the organization with which I’m in right now. Um, when I began. Right, uh, five years ago, I was actually in a product manager role at the SMB level. So going from that role to the new one in enterprise, I do see where you’re coming from. There are definitely some distinctions because like you said, when I was in the SMB and to some extent the mid-market space, that planning cycle is a lot shorter, it’s more truncated, and you kind of churn out these campaigns, you know, get those numbers that lead to EBITDA and you’re everyone’s happy, right? As long as you’ve got those quarterly, quarterly numbers rolling in. But yeah, there’s definitely a market difference with enterprise in the sense that there is a lot more expectation of patience and you’re in it for the long haul. For example, this year, life cycles are going to be anywhere from 36 months to 60 months. So with a three year span for renewals or, you know, 60 months is five years, it’s you’re not just sitting back and enjoying the ride. There are a lot of components that are moving within that 3 to 6, 3 to 5 year cycle. I can tell you that even with the three year cycle, if we renewed them in in 2022, you better believe that as as of late 2023, myself and anyone in the Customer Success enterprise field is already going to be looking at, okay, well, they have 20 months left on this contract. I need to start talking to the right stakeholders now and have those touch points on a quarterly basis. In addition to that, I have to keep in a campaign at least twice, once a quarter or twice a quarter to continue to gauge their interest.
[00:11:54:16] Katarina: Um, kind of judge what they’re going to be doing 36 months from now. And what you do is you take those, uh, those touchpoints, whether it’s a meeting, um, or some other forum that you’re in to kind of gauge, what are they going to do with that budget two years from now? But you got to plan that much earlier in advance because, you know, we know that these stakeholders start allocating that budget in quarter one of any fiscal year. So if we don’t catch up and figure out what they’re going to do, we might lose out on on an opportunity. Sometimes those opportunities, um, present themselves in unique ways, whether it’s a client facing meeting a lunch, you know, you might meet up with them at something like Mobile World Forum and hear that they’re going in a, you know, completely different direction. You don’t want to have panic alarms setting in thinking, okay, well, if they’re thinking about, you know, 5G and we’re already discussing something else, I better I better touch base with them to see what’s going on here. Right. But I think, um, continuously providing value add throughout that that that cycle is really important. But people really underestimate how important this is. You know, meeting in four I’s just to get a sense of are we still on track for renewals? Are we still on track for business in 2026? Because, you know, my organization might change in focus as, as as there is might as well longer cycles. Um, and more patience for that for that cycle time is what’s needed.
[00:13:26:00] Egidijus: So, uh, how many stakeholders do you typically need to work with when you think about, uh, kind of planning this account further.
[00:13:35:05] Katarina: At the enterprise level, in my own experience in large tech companies, it can be anywhere from 10 to 20. And I say that with yeah, I say that with reverence. Depending on the product, they, the, the C-suite might actually loop in the subject matter expert. Right. So you might start that discussion with somebody who is your peer at the VP level. But where things will go during that 24 to 36 month conversation, usually rest with a cluster of individuals that have operation management experience, the technical know how and the product right, and that that senior stakeholder will often defer to somebody at that mid level because they’re actually the the individual who knows the most about what the company is going to get from the product that we’re trying to sell, or what we call the biggest bang for the buck. Um, but as I said, the VP is actually physically the person who’s signing the contract. So the senior director of product or the VP of product can easily sway that C-suite, particularly when the C-suite individual is new to the organization, right? Let’s say we’re knee deep into a 36 month renewal about a specific type of upgraded technology software. Some new C-suite is coming in. He’s going to defer to the VP of product, who’s going to defer to the director. And all of a sudden, you’re in a forum where, you know, you’re a month away from signing and there’s ten new faces, right? It happens a lot.
[00:15:02:02] Egidijus: So my question is, in this extremely complex environment, how do you keep all the things together? You know, so kind of what is the secret sauce.
[00:15:14:14] Katarina: Yeah. The secret sauce is is really relying on, um, you know, the, the value add that the organization provides. In this case, let’s say it’s my organization doubling down on, um, you know, that value prop messaging, what differentiates us from our competitor, how we have seen success before working with the company in question. Right. Um, the the the elements of value add that we’ve provided, and also the reliability of the product that we’re trying to renew or sell in this situation. Um, oftentimes we also rely on the relationships that we’ve built over years and decades with that clients, individuals. Right. Um, that can also lead to a lot of success right there. But I think it’s really looking at the scope of the, you know, the long term relationship as well as the value add and the reliability of the product that’s being sold. I think the thing that many people forget to include in this ingredient or the secret sauce, is that element of trust, right? If you’ve been speaking to a customer for, you know, 36 to 60 months, um, whether it’s about a renewal or just an ongoing relationship, you really want to establish a level of integrity and trust. And you’d be surprised how much that plays into a factor, especially during a large, multi complex, uh, system purchase that’s in the millions. It that that is really an element that is often overlooked.
[00:16:42:18] Egidijus: Okay. Um, and Katrina, the thing is, like, you have a lot of stakeholders. I believe that quite, uh, these tea holders have a lot of touchpoints with your organization. And, like, how do you keep yourself up to date to what is happening with the account?
[00:17:06:04] Katarina: Well, I, I’m currently with a very large, you know, Canadian telco. Um, but we do have frequent touchpoints uh, internally as well. So we have weekly meetings. You know, I’ll say at the director level and among my peers, other customer success, uh, managers and executives, we have a monthly touchpoint, uh, with our C-suite as well. And we’re actually very close to them. We don’t have to jump hurdles to reach a VP, right? I think that’s also very important. Um, any any organization which is very nuanced and structured in the sense that you can’t reach out to a VP and find out what’s happening on the ground at their level. I that would be a cause for concern, right? Um, where I’m at right now, the level of transparency, it’s there. And if information that might change, you know, the nature of a relationship within, uh, with an enterprise client was being discussed. I would certainly know about it within the first few days.
[00:18:11:14] Egidijus: Um, okay. So kind of you have a really fast, uh, communication cycles.
[00:18:16:04] Katarina: We do, and we have multiple forums throughout the week and throughout the month where we can engage with those stakeholders either to feed them the information that they might need before going into a client facing meeting, but vice versa as well, where they might tell some tell and communicate to us something that we might not hear from the client, but they’ve heard right.
[00:18:34:14] Egidijus: Mhm. Do you use any kind of technology processes etc. just to kind of uh just to keep track of what your guys did.
[00:18:44:08] Katarina: Yes. So I mean, this is not proprietary secrecy or anything like that. Um, like many large organizations, uh, we use Salesforce. It’s no secret everyone’s using it. Um, and this is how I keep myself accountable and how others keep themselves accountable within the organization. Um, from a perspective, there’s a lot of training, a lot of investment in this software tool. I can tell you that I live live in this software tool. Um, and I document just about everything because I think, uh, many of the, the things that we consider hygiene, it’s not just checking a box. It’s really kind of filling in, um, you know, your planning cycle and capturing it as well as you can for anyone that might need to know No or who interacts with the client as well, but also about leaving that footprint in there, whether you stay or go. Um, that hygiene and you know that that resource, that footprint will remain. So I use it religiously. I really rely on it as a tool. We have other tools as well. But if I was to speak primarily about, you know, a life life in the day of a customer success executive at the organization that I work at, it is the one tool that I use all the time. I log in at, you know, early mornings and it will be the last tool I update right before I end my day.
[00:20:08:21] Egidijus: Um, and uh, so I, I understand that you are really religious about kind of logging everything, all the interactions and insights and everything. How do you convince the rest of the team, uh, to do the same?
[00:20:26:00] Katarina: Um, yeah, that’s that’s a that’s a fair point. We are. Dedicated to using it. We have, um, you know, training forums within the organization to bring anyone up to speed. Uh, multiple reminders to tell people to go in and check their hygiene and make sure they’re updating their hygiene. And this is kind of trickled down from the executive level downwards. So that message is strongly reinforced. I’d say on a daily basis, um, the funnel that we use also, you know, feeds, other metrics, other types of dashboards that we use are built out of the Salesforce tool. So if you’re not going in there and capturing, uh, important data, important conversations, important touchpoints, it’s going to be missed in other metrics. And this really encourages people to to remind themselves to do it. We have weekly forums where we meet as a team to just kind of go in there. If anyone’s forgotten, this is your hour to go in and do it. Um, and then you’re also reminded before that last week, which is that frenzy, the, you know, end of the month, particularly when it coincides with end of month and end of quarter. Right? That I would say is super important. I actually act as an advocate on my team as well, sort of the unofficial designated advocate to go in and remind my peers, hey, you need to go in there and do it. If you’re struggling, you can always reach out to me. I can show you some tips and tricks. Um, but I live and breathe in it, maybe more so now in this role than I’ve ever done before, because we’ve also got a nice elevated suite. Um, I really consider it a bird’s eye. 360 view footprint of your customer. If you’re not in there, you should be.
[00:21:59:00] Egidijus: I understand that kind of, um, documenting every aspect of what you do with the client is one of the key, let’s say, success factors for you. Uh, how would you define a perfect, um, customer success process for, uh, enterprise contract like lifecycle management? Basically. What what would be your ideal, ideal, um, case.
[00:22:26:18] Katarina: Ideal case. That’s a good question. I’ve never been asked that before. Um, well, if I was to, you know, look at a clean slate. You know, you got a new customer, uh, assigned to you. I would say your first week is going to be really kind of research, right? Go in, use the tools that are available to you to start looking at what this customer’s relationship has looked like over the past couple of years with your organization, if there hasn’t been one. Uh, there are many tools you can use to kind of look at what their priorities are. Right. And let’s say you don’t have a relationship with them. They’ve never purchased or spent with you. They’ve never even interacted with you. And I’ve been in that scenario. What I’ve gone and done is, you know, we’ve got a tool where we can go and research the customer. It’s got a nice recap of what their C-suite or, you know, the what their annual report has said are their priorities for this year and the next few years. Based on that, I would go into my documentation tool, whether it’s Salesforce or another one, and I would start working on a customer success plan.
[00:23:29:18] Katarina: So in that plan, I would start including what I know to be their priorities. I’ve already looked at who are the key stakeholders at the level that we want to engage with. Start documenting those individuals and build out your your one year plan. You can’t go further than that at this point because you don’t know them. That one year plan will include the sorts of touchpoints you plan to reach out with. Whether it’s cold calling email, possibly a campaign, or you know they’re going to be at that big event that you know you’re going to be at. So that’s the right opportunity to reach out. Begin that soft discussion about, hey, can we meet up? Interested in your your long term plan for this year? I think we have a solution, a product that would augment and complement what you’re trying to do. And I’d love to spend, you know, 20 minutes over a coffee just getting to know you that that’s really the best way to start.
[00:24:20:18] Egidijus: That sounds kind of like a really deep and the, uh, good preparation. Uh, what I like from this, it’s like that you don’t think about what you can sell, but you think about what are their objectives. That’s right.
[00:24:36:23] Katarina: And that’s where. That’s where. That’s where a lot of customer success, um, struggle. You know, I think customer success really needs to start thinking bigger than the hey, I’ve got the best solution in the world, and this is why you should buy it from me. Right. Whereas objectively, what they should be looking at is what are the priorities of the customers? What are the challenges that they’re facing right now, and how can we help them solve those challenges? Right. Because if you begin the discussion from what you know, let’s say you’re my customer, Geddes and I and I, and I’m setting up a meeting with you. I would like to know where your where your top three challenges are, because then I can start thinking outside of the box in terms of how I can support you in turning those challenges into wins, right? See how I’m not pushing a product on you? I’m not pushing a solution. I’m really trying to develop a sense of what is the root cause of why Egidijus’ firm or Egidijus’ Company is experiencing these challenges, and how can I and my organization come in to support him? Uh, to kind of figure out what we can do to help you solve them. Right. When you start using the word solve versus I’m going to push a solution on you from the get go. I think you’re going to see that the natural courses a conversation will develop. And that’s probably the biggest win you can have in that moment, because it opens the door to trust.
[00:26:03:12] Egidijus: Yeah, I was just about to say, like, you’re actually building trust there. And, um, do I understand correctly that in business you are actually selling the trust first and then everything else?
[00:26:19:20] Katarina: Absolutely, 100%. If the trust and the integrity isn’t built. Um, and it doesn’t come out in the first few interactions, especially with a new customer. Right. Why would you think they would want to buy from you? Right? I mean, if you think of your own purchasing habits and your own your own buying habits and trends, um, you’ll usually go to a supplier where you’ve had success with before, where you’ve had an established relationship. Right. There’s that soft element of trust. But much like any relationship or transaction, I’m pretty confident that at this level and within this segment, trust is a very, very important factor. And sometimes it’s it’s overlooked. Um, but I can see that with many of the customers that we have, particularly in healthcare. Trust is such an important element. Um, because they’re not going to be spending one time with you. Right? If they’re purchasing a lot with within an important segment like health care, they’d like to know that not only is it reliable, but that your word matters. You as an individual and the way you present yourself outwardly facing as a representative of your organization. You are trustworthy. Um, if they trust you, they’re more than likely to trust the solution or the product that you’re trying to pitch to solve their challenge. I think it’s really often overlooked, but I’d like to double down on that, and I’m glad that you called it out.
[00:27:44:13] CVM Stories: If you are interested in customer value management, check out our customer value Management body of knowledge. CVMBoK is a comprehensive guide for CVM professionals offering tips, tools and best practices to help you in your job. Visit cvmbok.com for more.
[00:28:01:04] Egidijus: Katrina. Do you have your own trustworthiness formula? You know what are the the key ingredients?
[00:28:08:23] Katarina: I do I do actually.
[00:28:10:18] Katarina: And they’re hard to kind of break down. You can’t really like you know a teaspoon of that a shake of that. I think it’s a lot of do you do what you say you’re going to do, right? It can be small things, but if a vice president says to me, I’d like to see a service action plan. I’d like to see an SLA delivered in my inbox by Friday morning. I’ll be sure to get it to them that very same day. You know, if somebody says to me, I’d like to see a lot more about the value propositions of a certain type of product, or can you, can you can you explain to me when you all say you, you guys provide the most reliable end to end solution, coast to coast? What does that actually mean? Break it down for me. I will break it down for them and certainly try to do that before they’re hunting me. Hey, remember we reached out two weeks ago? Where is it? I think those small steps can help to build a lot of trust, but I also think that there is an individual element to it as well. So in client facing meetings, if you’re a very boastful, arrogant, brash, that’s just not going to work. Um, particularly with certain segments in an enterprise. These are seasoned veterans, and they’ll see right through the cracks, right? What they want is a slow and nuanced approach, and they want to be speaking with somebody who displays an element of trust, who has a human story to bring to the table. Um, that’s really important in a day where all we’re doing is sitting behind a computer or trying to push something. Right.
[00:29:36:12] Egidijus: Mhm.
[00:29:37:16] Egidijus: It’s a really funny that we are talking about, you know, enterprise segment. But in this enterprise segment, uh, the most important aspect is the human aspect.
[00:29:47:23] Katarina: It is, it is, it really is.
[00:29:50:19] Katarina: Um, you know, if I was to be buying $14 million worth of technology from company X, I would hope and pray that I’m actually dealing with somebody that is a human being and that they they are intimately familiar with the challenges that I and my organization currently face. Right? Because that’s a lot of money. That’s a lot of OpEx and CapEx to be discussing at anyone’s level. And when Ink is signed to pen. I also want to be very, very, um, encouraged that day two. I pick up that phone and that level of support is there. And and oftentimes I feel that is what the real struggle is about. They all know that once that contract is signed, it’s done right. How can I ensure peace of mind? How can I ensure that the customer knows that once that contract is signed, that day two person is going to call my organization? And that level of support that we talked about for 36 months does exist. It’s not just something we speak about at face value. It’s there. It’s built out and it’s ready to go.
[00:30:52:06] Egidijus: So we we touched a little bit this, uh, interesting, uh, part is like the concept of day two. Yeah. So, so there’s like, um, uh, the first contract signing, and then there is everything else.
[00:31:08:08] Katarina: That’s it.
[00:31:10:08] Egidijus: So how do you distinguish these two roles? You know, kind of if it’s like sales and then customer success.
[00:31:17:22] Katarina: You got it. Yeah.
[00:31:19:20] Egidijus: How do you, uh, kind of collaborate with between those two?
[00:31:24:05] Katarina: It’s often called the grey zone, but it really isn’t. If you look at the, the, the relationship, um, that is built up until the point of the contract being signed. I’d say that’s sales driven, but I do believe that the customer success individual often compliments and marries sales, especially during the, uh, the entire process to get that contract signed. But where it differentiates is really that day two, because from day two onwards it is customer success, right? The sales individual is is the hunter, the customer success individual is the nurturer or the gatherer. Right? Uh, and many times they feed sales the data that they see following that day to process. But I would say that is the distinction. Day two onwards is the customer success Role. Right. Where that differentiation often, uh, gets tricky is during retentions and renewals. Right. Because then it’s a little bit of both and it’s hard to decipher who’s actually leading this versus who’s driving it. Um, day two is customer success absolutely, 100%. But if they’re not there throughout that entire negotiation journey, acting as the trusted advisor and reassuring the stakeholders in that C-suite that don’t worry, when those hands change in the contract signs, myself and my team will be there to guide you every step of the way. We’re not going to leave you in the dark. We really won’t.
[00:32:47:05] Egidijus: And how much, um, of, uh, let’s say, the power. Do you have to make sure that the implementation stages, you know, smooth, uh, for the customer. So they signed the contract, uh, the kind of deployment or connection process happens and kind of, uh, do you have authority to, uh, to make sure that the issues are resolved fast.
[00:33:13:12] Katarina: Or we do.
[00:33:15:13] Katarina: We do. We are often working in tangent with the project manager and the implementation team. The delivery solution team. Um, on many occasions we will actually be the one kind of, I’m not going to say dictating the terms, but building out the ideal deployment plan based on what we know the customer wants. So if they’ve ordered 3500 components and they need them implemented at, you know, various units across the country, and I know the schedule, right. Like I know that East is going to be a priority. West comes later. I don’t I have to trickle that information down to the implementation manager that, um, that there’s going to be a split in terms of priority. And I’d say that we have a lot of, um, frequency of touchpoints with those individuals as well. Oftentimes they’ll lean on us and say, hey, you, you have the customer relationship. I’m either newly assigned or kind of late to the game. What can you tell me that will help me, um, build this plan out stronger? So, yes. And answer to your question, we have a lot of, um, collegiality with these with these individuals. We work with them very closely, and oftentimes we know them quite well. So we can I wouldn’t say dictate the terms, but I would say, uh, support them to ensure that our customers are supported in the way that we know they’d want to be.
[00:34:36:19] Egidijus: So it’s kind of, uh, your the advocate of the client, basically, and making sure that the kind of the client, uh, succeeds with, uh, with it and help, uh, our teams.
[00:34:51:11] Katarina: You’re the voice of the customer. Absolutely. And you can build, uh, various vehicles to distribute to the other individuals within the organization who get involved at the day two level, whether it’s the I am, the PM, or who, not whoever not, I often build, um, Uh, an entire package for them because, like, here are the things you need to know about this customer. This is their cycle. This is how they split the organization in terms of priority. And happy to meet with you to kind of discuss or even look at the plan that you’ve built out to see if you need to tweak it or nuance it to this specific customer.
[00:35:26:05] Egidijus: So this is this was like a very interesting topic. Another interesting topic for for me is like when we talk with, uh, I think about enterprise customers, it’s usually kind of a stage approach, a staged approach to enter larger organizations like land and expand mode. So are you working with this as well, or this is a this is a sales, uh, uh, let’s say part.
[00:35:53:17] Katarina: It’s definitely sales driven. Yeah, it’s definitely sales driven. But I’ve never been in a scenario where they haven’t included customer success. It’s really doubled down that they should, particularly as they know that once day two happens, it’s customer success moving forward and they’re on to the next opportunity. Um, I’ve been very fortunate in the sense that I have great relationships with my my sales leaders and my sales team. We really think of each other as an extension of, um, that entire, you know, span of the customer relationship. I meet with them almost frequently, daily, if you will. So if if there’s no reason for customer success to be in a forum, they would tell me, um, but I touch base with them every single day. Yeah, we’re pretty much a married couple.
[00:36:45:00] Katarina: Absolutely.
[00:36:46:11] Egidijus: It sounds really inspiring that you are guys working in a really large organization, but still, it seems that you have such a good collaboration between, uh, so many different functions. That’s unbelievable.
[00:37:00:15] Katarina: I think.
[00:37:00:23] Katarina: That’s, um.
[00:37:02:01] Katarina: That speaks to the culture of the organization as well. I’ve, I have heard that’s not always the case, that there seems to be a push and pull factor with, uh, some organizations when it comes to sales and customer success, that they may not even work together or get along. And that’s really a shame. Um, because they’re truly part of the same shell. If if they don’t see that the value in that, then that friction, um, will definitely be displayed in any customer facing meeting, right? Um, and I think it should be resolved early on. You know who does what specifically? Um, but when it comes to anything customer facing, they should present a united front.
[00:37:42:00] Egidijus: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Now, if somebody, uh, is thinking about, uh, similar career in customer success, uh, working with large enterprises, what would you say? Uh, are the less, uh, what would these, uh, people need to learn and build, uh, uh, so that it would become, let’s say, good or great, uh, customer success experts.
[00:38:15:22] Katarina: I think that if you’re building a customer success and sales, uh, function into any new or existing organization, maybe the most important thing to do from the very beginning would be to clearly define what that role and responsibility looks like across both segments, sales and customer success. And possibly the easiest way to do it would be to begin with a RACI chart of presumed roles and responsibilities. Right. Map out at least I’d say 10 to 25 top, and then use 2 to 3 cycles of quarters to see how realistic that RACI chart looks after the fact. Right. Because in the first year, you’re going to see that you’re probably going to be tweaking it a lot. Um, but after the first, after that first year or even after the first six months, see where you rest at and then take a real, you know, sit back and think, hmm. So this is what they actually ended up doing. Right. Because the other challenge is going to be, how are you going to gauge success? Right. Those individuals and those teams are going to be marked at the end of the year for performance. So where is the weight going to be on customer success? Is it really a lot of what they thought was going to be day two, but turned out to be day one because that should technically be sales, right? How do you define those two roles? Um, is really going to determine the success of of that organization. And there’s no magic formula. There’s no secret sauce. Be ready to pivot. Be ready to learn and be ready to switch gears. If after a few quarters the what you thought was customer success actually turned out to a lot of customer service or service management, um, or SLA or retention. Yes and no. Like, like they shouldn’t be jumping in every single time the customer has an escalation because the product’s down. Well that’s product, but how do they loop those other teams in. Right. So take a look at that RACI adjust and tweak it as need be. Um, until you, you you kind of align on something that seems to fit the pattern of what you’re seeing quarter over quarter.
[00:40:30:05] Egidijus: And, and how do you see yourself. Kind of because it’s also a customer success is very in role in between. You know, you you don’t own the product. You don’t. That’s right. On the delivery etc.. You but you stitch.
[00:40:48:02] Katarina: You stitch it all together. Yeah. You’re the stitcher of the quilt.
[00:40:53:09] Egidijus: Yes. So so I think you’re RACI matrix is like 100 different, uh, responsibilities, you know?
[00:41:01:05] Katarina: Yeah. How do I see myself? Um, that’s a good question. I, I often have to kind of tap myself on the shoulder when I see myself jumping in into every service escalation. I go back to my racing, and I remind myself I’m not there to fix the product, which is down right. But what I am there to do is help the customer escalate it. So if the service team isn’t robust enough to, you know, fix it or provide a root cause analysis within one week, something is challenging and that needs to go to, you know, the director or the the C-suite of that team. I’m continuously having to jump out of situations because it’s not within my role and responsibility. But what is my responsibility is a reminder that I am the voice of this customer. If that if that service issue, if that SLA or if that promise from the implementation team hasn’t been delivered, then I need to escalate this to those seniors to do better and to remind them that, hey, see this RACI that’s not on customer success. It’s actually on you guys. Okay, so how can we do better to ensure that this customer is mitigated in the fashion and in the way in which they deserve, based on the contract that we’ve provided?
[00:42:15:12] Egidijus: If I understand correctly, you’re not doing the job, but you are the person who makes sure that the job is done.
[00:42:21:21] Katarina: You got it. Yes. Yeah.
[00:42:27:11] Egidijus: It’s a very, very, very interesting. Katarina, we will move to, uh, to the wrap up stage of our, uh, discussion today. And I would like to ask you four very interesting questions. So question number one is throughout your beautiful career and very interesting career. What was your proudest moment? Uh, in it.
[00:42:57:10] Katarina: Oh, geez. Um, that’s a difficult question. This particular year was an interesting one. Um, in Canada, we’re facing a lot of headwinds, which I’m sure you read about in the the news cycle. Um, a lot of things that are changing and shaping, um, the country that I live in are top of mind. And given the uncertainty that’s unfolded over the past couple of months, I was most surprised, I should say, and honored and truly privileged to have won. Um, you know, the highest award within my current organization, uh, for Customer Success. It was absolutely wonderful and astounding, considering the kind of year we’ve had. It’s been a wild ride, but it really speaks to the level of care that I provide my customers. And I was really, really honored and privileged, first of all, to support some of these customers. Some of these customers are icons in Canada. Um, but even beyond that, I know that they face some really, really hard challenges as we as we all have. Right to see that, to see some of the testimonials that came in really brought a nice smile, tears to my eyes. I just was really floored. You know, I’d say that in the last 25 years, this is one of the nicest acknowledgments that I’ve ever received.
[00:44:23:16] Katarina: Um, in one of the most difficult times in the economic cycle of this country. So I’m really, really, really proud of it. Um, but if I can say one more thing, one of the other accomplishments that I’m very proud of was the accession to full NATO membership of some of the countries that I supported in, in Central and Eastern Europe, uh, particularly the Baltic states. I have so many friends in those countries to this day, to this very day. Um, to see what’s happening in the world right now and a reminder of the insurmountable and dispensable things we were. We were able to do 25 years ago. Really warms my heart. Especially as somebody that, you know, came from Europe to see them thriving and doing well, uh, not just as independent countries, but you see these names come up in technology and business. And I’m just so proud that that, that they’ve had a chance to stand tall and independent and to know that I was a little kernel of that success. You know, it’s it’s something that is really life changing. And I and I feel very honored. Yeah.
[00:45:31:12] Egidijus: Uh, I wanted to personally thank you, Katrina, for contributing to our, uh, freedom and, uh, and our, um, security so that, you know, we have this opportunity to have this podcast with you. Yeah. Because we are free.
[00:45:48:07] Katarina: Yeah. I worked really closely with, uh, uh. And I know him personally very well. John Baldwin, Hannibal’s son. It’s probably him. You should be thinking more than me. But yeah, it’s really nice to see the Baltics at the forefront of just about everything these days, whether it’s technology, customer success, you name it. I mean, the Baltic countries are truly showing their colors and stripes in ways that are, uh, really wonderful to see, especially on the basketball court. But that’s a topic for another podcast.
[00:46:17:05] Egidijus: Good. Throughout this career, I bet you have had some challenging moments. Uh, or could you share an episode or two from from this side as well?
[00:46:29:02] Katarina: Yes, absolutely. Um, one of the challenges that I experienced throughout my career happened about 15 years ago when I was working for Canada’s largest, uh, national news organization. The organization was thinking how to do something which was considered impossible in 2010, and that was take free news content completely free on the website. You know, on the digital products. How do you take that? And now start to change a customer habit and ask them to pay for it, basically force them to pay for it. And, you know, it was a real it was a real challenge. Um, conversations throughout the organization went on for over 12 months before we even built out a plan. Right. And everyone had an opinion, and everyone’s opinion was so divided and mired in controversy. But in the end, we actually took note of what our partner was doing in the United States about how to build slow audience habits, which were really about, um, you know, building a paywall. Right. So after five free articles, you got to pay this, right. And at what point do you stop, like, how do you segment your audience to understand who are those most loyal that come to this website or this digital property every day? How do you ensure that you’re not going to lose them by putting in a hard payment option.
[00:47:51:09] Katarina: Um, that project took three and a half years to build and pivoted at every, every point you could imagine. But finally, in, uh, 2013, it happened. It became live. And we had a lot of reservations. There was a lot of, you know, hushed voices. People were holding their breath. And that first year, you know, we got 650,000 subscribers across Canada. And I’m happy to say that that a lot of the doubts, a lot of the naysayers were turned down. A few years later, every single news organization in Canada followed suit. And you see this now everywhere in the world, right? People starting to think that content is king. But how did you change that mindset to believe, like content shouldn’t be free? If people are willing to buy for buy a book, then they should pay for a news article or some data sets or business value that, uh, that they frequently use. Changing a mindset is something that takes time. Um, and it was a huge challenge, more so in the sense that everyone was divided. Everyone had an opinion, an approach of how to do it, and there was a unified voice around it.
[00:48:59:21] Egidijus: Three and you said three and a half years. Yeah. Just to change everything.
[00:49:04:16] Katarina: You got it. It’s a real challenge. But it was an eye opener in many ways as well, because you really you really had to convince people that who were from a different generation that, you know, if you can sell a printed product, a printed newspaper, why couldn’t you sell the digital version of it? Right. Changing that mindset was interesting because some of the arguments and viewpoints you encountered were really unique, based on the generation of the individual they were coming from.
[00:49:32:20] Egidijus: How do you learn and what are your personal growth, uh, let’s say pathways.
[00:49:41:04] Katarina: They’ve changed a lot over the decades. Uh, in my 20s and 30s, I learned by doing. But I’d say. Yeah. And you think, you know, everything in your way is the right way because you’re young and you’re full of energy. Right. I’d say in my 40s I started to learn through two different metrics. One was through trial and error, and one was actually going back and thinking about the things that elders and people with a lot more experience had told me in my 20s. And I just kind of brushed it off and thought, what do they know? Well, they know a lot, right? And if I had been a little bit more silent and a little bit more willing to listen, I probably would have learned those lessons earlier on. But that’s also a trait that comes with age. So at this point in my life, I really learned at, um, I really learned by learning from your mistakes. Right? Your postmortems, as I call them, can reveal a lot. And if you’re really looking to look, if you’re really looking to learn, look at some of the things you did wrong. And you you had another pathway and you didn’t choose it. Maybe start thinking about that. Start listening to your gut instinct a lot more because it’s usually right. And when somebody who’s been on this planet 60, 75 years tells you, hey, I’ve been around the block too, and you might want to look at exploring this pathway. Listen to them and try it, because it’s probably going to save you a lot of time and energy. That’s how I learn. Yeah, there’s other ways to learn. I, I read a lot. Um, I, I try to take an hour every night to read something that’s personally motivating. Uh, whether it’s a biography, whether it’s another business, uh, executive and what they’ve learned from, you know, their career pathway. And sometimes it’s just leisure reading to kind of turn your mind around and, you know, get back to the basics, if you will.
[00:51:33:12] Egidijus: I think that’s, uh, a reflection on on your learnings. It’s, uh, as undervalued as a building.
[00:51:40:11] Katarina: Trust it is. Yeah, yeah, we can all reflect and, uh, and think about situations in the past that we could have approached with a little more nuance. Um, one thing I have learned in the past ten years, really, in the past ten years, I’ve noticed this about myself is that, you know, before I used to rush to do, to do, to do. Now, I won’t do that anymore. I’ll sit and I’ll pause and I’ll think about it, and then I’ll think about, okay, why am I doing this? What is the rationale behind this? Is there another way. Right. And again, I don’t know if that comes with age or through trial and error and kind of a slower approach to a longer vision. But I’m going to stop myself before I speak. I’m going to read, look at the data, look at the data again, look at the data again, and then make a decision instead of rushing.
[00:52:31:22] Egidijus: So this is a mastery level, uh.
[00:52:35:11] Katarina: Talking I hope so.
[00:52:38:10] Egidijus: And I have the toughest challenge, uh, for every of our guests is, uh, how do we make this customer value management field? Uh, and customer success. Success management field famous? You know, because this is a unknown field for many people.
[00:52:59:19] Katarina: Yeah, that is a challenge. Um, I think what you guys are doing in the value management space is really indispensable. Um, some of the tips and tricks I’ve picked up from from the book and some of your other vehicles have been game changers. Um, and I think the fact that you’re trying to pivot and position yourself in that space as a subject matter experts, as the the forum and the leader speaks volumes to what’s missing, right? This is one of the things I love about Exacaster is that I read the vehicles and I read the columns pieces, and I was like, hmm, interesting. This is something that nobody is really doubling down on to, to to my knowledge. Right. Um, continuing to provide that value. Add is going to change as platforms change, as opportunities change. So it’s something that’s still fresh and top of mind, and it is gathering a lot of momentum right now and conversations are happening around it. And I don’t know the answer. It is I, I, I look at various pieces that work for me, and I try to harmonize them into some sort of schedule or a content package, if you will. Right. Value package is a better word. The value package, right, because it can include different elements. And you build this library of value that you’re continually churning out and and providing the customer. But I think there’s going to be shifts in the next couple of months, the next couple of years, and that value management repository is going to become much more necessary because life cycles are getting faster and customers have different options now than they did before. Right? I think I as well is going to really contribute to making this game changer. The big unknown, how that’s going to shape the conversation is something I’m curious to see. There’s a lot of fear, there’s a lot of fear mongering, and I don’t think that fear mongering is necessary. I think I can really augment and kind of placate the conversation, but I’d like to see how as well.
[00:54:58:19] Egidijus: Thank you. Katrina. It was a pleasure to talk to you today.
[00:55:02:22] Katarina: Yourself as well. Thank you, Egidijus, and I wish you and Exacaster much success. You’ve got a strong advocate and a strong learner in myself. I’m curious to see where this, uh, this is going to go. And, um, thank you so much for the opportunity and the honor and privilege of speaking with you.
[00:55:23:17] CVM Stories: CVM Stories is produced by Exacaster. We help companies take their customer value management to the next level. To stay updated on our latest episodes, subscribe to the podcast or sign up for an email newsletter at exacaster.com/cvmstories
