Building a CVM Growth Machine Beyond Upsell and Retention

Adil: [00:00:00] For a CVM function to be successful or to actually have impact, it needs to be fast and the results need to be reproducible. The traditional mindset of CVM has been or growth has been around the growth funnel, but in growth loops, you start thinking about product and acquisition strategy and monetization altogether. Fundamentally, you need to have at least a 4 to 5 year roadmap of where you want to take CVM. That’s extremely essential.

Exacaster: [00:00:25] Welcome to CVM Stories, the podcast on customer value management. Together, we explore how companies can be more successful and their customers happier through the use of latest customer value management techniques. Learn key commercial and analytical insights from telecoms, retail, finance and other industries that drive CVM forward.

Egidijus: [00:00:44] Hi, I’m Egidijus, your host. Today. We are excited to welcome Adil Khabir, Head of Growth and Analytics at stc Bahrain. We will be talking about creating a competitive edge for telecom organizations. We will touch on topics such as CVM function, alignment with business strategy, building autonomous CVM teams, and creating growth loops. So let’s get started. Hi Adil, welcome to the podcast.

Adil: [00:01:15] Hi. Thank you very much for having me.

Egidijus: [00:01:19] So it’s already a season number four for us. You are our first guest in 2025. So happy New Year I would say.

Adil: [00:01:29] Yeah happy New Year to you too and all your viewers.

Egidijus: [00:01:32] Yes. So, Adil, when I was kind of looking through your experience and profile, I see that you are that one of a very rare kind of people who started in CVM and are still working in CVM. And I saw that you started started working in CVM from something like 2009. You know, when everything just started. So were you born with interesting interest into customer value management or how did you get started? You know.

Adil: [00:02:14] So interesting start. So, um, what I would say is that I’ve, I’ve been like a, you can say an enthusiast of math or numbers or data science since kind of like childhood from school. And then I went on to do my bachelor’s in computer science, which again was a lot to do with computation and numbers and data. And then after that, I did my MBA, which also centered around marketing and strategy. So if you think of it, the combination of these three fields, uh, data and marketing and strategy, the union of them is pretty much CVM. So, so when I actually after my MBA, I landed my first job in the telecom industry and I. Yeah, my first job was actually in the product side. But then very soon I got an opportunity to work in CVM. And once I started working in CVM, I just loved the whole notion of, you know, looking at data kind of mining insights and based on insights, having the power to actually connect with customers and actually engage them through different propositions and learning from that. So that kind of something, that’s something that fascinated me. And yeah, pretty miraculously, 15 years later, I still love it. I still get, you know, inspiration from it and I still get the kick from it. So yeah, it’s been a long time, but I still love the love, the discipline.

Egidijus: [00:03:37] And so you mentioned those three different things like, you know, data technology and marketing side. So which of those three kind of it’s your number one passion.

Adil: [00:03:52] I would say um, uh, data and leveraging data for insights. That’s probably, uh, probably the key thing that I’ve worked on since a very long time now. Um, but, you know, making sense of that and utilizing that is probably where a lot of the economics in the world has shifted as well. It’s not only about crunching the data anymore. It has to make sense. It has to be leveraged in some way so that it’s impactful. And I think that connection or that journey of of transitioning is, is pretty fascinating for me. So once you do have that impact and you generate value from it, that’s where you really kind of see the power of, uh, using data.

Egidijus: [00:04:33] And so this is a very good topic. So, uh, so you had almost uh, it’s like 17 years or uh, in CVM. So, um, could you share your CVM formula, you know, for Delivering the result. So what did you learn about this over those years that you would say, if you for me, this is like, you know, golden formula.

Adil: [00:05:03] So, um, look, I think we talked briefly earlier as well about like, modern CVM. And the reason I like that term is that CVM has evolved. Now, if I, if I go back around 15 years, when I started in CVM back in 2009, it was very traditional. Um, you would kind of look at data based on you would do some very primal or basic kind of segmentation, and then based on that, you would come up with different kind of campaigns, which are very static in nature. They would be based on the growth funnel, um, you know, acquisition, engagement, retention, but they would be pretty much static. And then you would just keep building on those campaigns. Now it’s changed a lot. So now CVM is more about understanding business problems and seeing how CVM can help solve those business problems Using the strengths of again, analytics and experimentation and solution engineering, etc.. So what I would say is, is the is the winning recipe, at least for me, is that you need to evolve over time. I mean, you need to understand how the business is evolving, how industries are evolving, and how the needs of business are evolving. And similarly, the discipline of CVM needs to evolve as well. Now, if it’s not linked to the strategic needs of a business, then you will not be able to progress. It’s as simple as that. So I think that evolution of CVM, the way it’s happened and kind of leading that evolution, that’s extremely essential. Um, I would say it’s to some extent, whatever success I’ve gotten is, is trying to stay ahead of the game, always trying to kind of preempt what new technology we can incorporate part of CVM or what new testing methodologies or agile development approach, etc.. You know, what kind of tools, what kind of kind of partnerships? So once you stay ahead of the game and start understanding this and start leveraging this, this is, I feel, is where you continue to remain. At least you try to continue to remain successful.

Egidijus: [00:07:00] So, uh, if, uh, if I can rephrase how I understood your success formula. Okay. So, uh, if I understand correctly, you start from the business objectives, basically kind of the, uh, the business needs basically drives, uh, your evolution and then kind of, uh, you try to adapt to the business needs with the toolset and the insights that you can bring on the table. Uh, kind of did I understand, understand, understand your intention correctly?

Adil: [00:07:37] Correct. And just to add to this, I believe, like, again, for a CVM function to be successful or to actually have impact, a it needs to be fast and the results need to be reproducible. Now by fast we mean it needs to be efficient. And for results to be reproducible means that it needs to be based on the foundation of being scalable, scalable and modular. So I mean, I think we’re going to jump in more into the VM ecosystem and how kind of like I or we as a team built it as build a VM ecosystem, but that’s very important. I mean, once you start understanding that you need to react to the market quickly. The time to market is less. And also that you’re creating a solution which is kind of acting like building blocks. And it’s modular in nature. And honestly, these are things that are also leveraged for my experience in computer science because they’re fundamentally everything is broken down into smaller building blocks and you need to build on top of them. So the same kind of thought process, like we kind of brought together in the VM thinking as well on how can we build solutions which solutions which can be stacked on top of each other.

Egidijus: [00:08:48] Okay, so, uh, I think we touched another very interesting topic. So, uh, so how do you stay ahead of, of the game? What are these building blocks? How do you create this team, this winning team that runs ahead, you know.

Adil: [00:09:07] So, um, again, I think, uh, fundamentally what you require is if I, if I see the things that I try to do right at the beginning of, of my CVM journey, or if I talk about the current place where I’m working because I’ve been here probably the longest. Um, what I try to do a is you need to set the vision. You need to have at least a 4 to 5 year roadmap of where you want to take CVM. That’s extremely essential. And based on that, you need to kind of figure out what kind of investments you require, what kind of tools, what kind of team you need to build, and what kind of impact you need to be seeing yourself having five years down the road. For example.

Egidijus: [00:09:43] If I would ask a question, why is it so important to think, uh, in, uh, 4 or 5 years, uh, perspective? Uh, when we because from one side we say we need to be fast, but we need to look also at a longer perspective why it’s so important.

Adil: [00:10:01] So at the end of the day, again, you need to react to the market quickly. But the thing is that when you need to create that ecosystem or infrastructure, that infrastructure needs to stand the, uh, it needs to stand time as well. I mean, so it needs to be built in a way that, you know, it’s it’s still going to be viable 4 or 5 years down the road because these are usually it requires significant investment and time and effort and key decisions from your from your leadership team. So it doesn’t make sense to create something which, you know, you will have to completely revamp or redo after six months or one year. So again, when we get into that infrastructure discussion or ecosystem, then it has to be it has to have that vision which can continue serving the business objective for a longer period of time. So that’s why I think it’s critical. And when we talk about vision, I feel it’s equally important to have the buy in a strong buy in from your leadership team. So which means that whatever vision you have for CVM, it needs to be linked to the strategic vision of the company as well. Only then you will have this actual buy in and belief from management. So I think that’s that’s number one for me. That’s probably the most critical thing that have the right vision and right from the get go, have that buy in from your leadership.

Adil: [00:11:14] That’s number one. Um, number two, if I would say what we try to do well, in the beginning was find the right partners. And when I talk about partners, it’s not only internal and its external partners as well. So as you know, one of the most critical partners for CVM would be your technology teams, technology and products. So one thing that I’ve always tried to do, it has to be based on collaboration. You need to have a collaborative. You need to have built strong relationships. And at the end of the day, whoever you collaborate with should be based on a win win kind of model. So for us, partnering with technology, bringing them on board right from the beginning was extremely important. Secondly, the external partners partnerships were also important. For example, we were, I would say, kind of fortunate in the beginning of our journey to find some very experienced consultants who helped us set the infrastructure for analytics. Now, when you had the right groundwork for analytics, that kind of paved the way for us to set up the big data function, which kind of can see from CVM in my case and went on to a full fledged data lake, and it serves now the whole company, which is, I think, something to be very proud about. And at the same time, then we partnered with partners like Cloudera with SAS for campaign management systems, etc. so we try to invest in the in the partners with whom we can have a long term relationship with.

Adil: [00:12:42] So I think that’s probably the second most important thing investing in the right partners. And the third and final point would be investing in the right people. I think human capital is so essential probably for any line of business. However, for CVM, it’s a bit more critical because there are so many various lines of business that you have. You need to have people who are skilled in in analytics and data, maybe in data science as well. You need to have marketeers. You need to have people who understand product and solution design. So it’s a wide variety and it’s a lot of complementary skills. So I don’t know if I can stress on this enough, but the hiring process is so critical. And it’s funny that on a few certain roles, I’ve been so picky that I interviewed maybe 50 people. It took over a year for me to find the right individual. Like my HR team stopped talking to me. They didn’t want to see me anymore. I mean, it’s, uh. But I’ve usually been very picky on finding the right people. But at the end of the day, there’s a lot of ROI associated to that. You get a lot of benefit. So I think these three things are extremely essential. And I would say they are part of the winning formula for me at least.

Egidijus: [00:13:57] Uh, Adele, you touched so many, uh, interesting topics that I have. I don’t know, ten questions now. I will try to prioritize. I will start from the last question. Um, uh, we are writing, uh, Body of Knowledge book. And in that book, we wrote a chapter on what are the best qualities of CVMs or kind of what qualities do you need to look for when you’re hiring CVMs. And now I want to ask you, what are those, uh, cherry picking points, you know, because, uh, I want to double test. Do we have a similar view or not?

Adil: [00:14:39] So look, I think one of the things in CVM, a lot of CVM is based on experimentation, right. A/B testing as we say. That means you need to be innovative in your in your approach on how you deal with different kinds of problems, because you’ll be faced with different kind of business problems all the time. Um, so I think somebody who is creative, who is willing to try new things, I think that that is an essential characteristic of a person, um, as a baseline. Again, it’s very important to have an analytics mindset because again, CVM is a function that is the baseline is on data. I mean, we rely on data. We rely on understanding the consumer in a lot of detail and then building propositions on top of it. Um, so uh, therefore somebody who is analytically minded and understands data well is another important characteristic. And then since again, you need to work closely with business teams. And at the end of the day you need to understand the consumer. So you need to have that kind of business hat or that marketing kind of hat as well. So it’s it’s it’s difficult actually. And that’s why at times it’s very difficult to hire or find the right talent, because it’s a combination of various kind of skills that come around. I don’t know if I answered your question completely.

Egidijus: [00:15:59] But yeah, it’s it’s like.

Adil: [00:16:01] A complex topic.

Egidijus: [00:16:02] It’s a very interesting topic. And it’s like we can spend hours on that. Uh, because of the complexity of CVM role, uh, it’s actually kind of extremely tough. It’s very difficult to find the right person to do the job. So I totally agree with, uh, everything what you say. And, uh, now I know that in the next book version, we will add a couple of more aspects. Uh, but I would not like to stop here. I would like to ask another question from your previous insights. So alignment with uh, with top management. Uh, and you know, there are like top down approaches. Like if you have support from top management, it will work. Uh, and then there are bottom up approaches when, you know, top management doesn’t understand what we do and how do we kind of make this a priority. So, uh, do you have any advice on how to, uh, align in both of these situations?

Adil: [00:17:10] So look, um, what we do as a company, and I know a lot of, uh, probably companies follow this methodology is that we have kind of a hybrid model where you would have a top down approach where you would like part of your business, man, you would come up with the strategic initiatives which are important for the company and for the next, uh, say a couple of years. So those are initiatives which are really critical and important for your leadership team. But at the same time as as teams, you would also have bottom up initiatives. Um, and it’s kind of like, uh, the marriage of the two directions to come up with a hybrid and to see where the two meet. Um, so so it’s always that, uh, working model that you need to do. We usually do this exercise this once a year, uh, as part of our planning cycle. Uh, we get to know and we have a long discussion on the strategic initiatives as well. At the same time, we as a team come up with initiatives that are mindful of the of the strategy. Obviously, you cannot have, uh, initiatives that are totally on a different tangent. You need to understand the industry. You need to understand the competition, the market forces and what aspirations your the company has. And based on that, you need to come up with bottom up initiatives. And I would say and probably nine out of ten times, they usually do find that place where you know, you know, the two can meet. And obviously that requires a little bit of probably alignment, but we come up with a set of initiatives which are a reflection of both top down and bottom up.

Exacaster: [00:18:38] Mm.

Egidijus: [00:18:39] Okay. So it’s like, uh, unfortunately you need to do both.

Adil: [00:18:44] I don’t think there’s any other way.

Adil: [00:18:48] Honestly. Yeah.

Egidijus: [00:18:49] Um, so, uh, now a bit, uh, wrapping up a bit the topic. So it’s, uh, to me, kind of the context for CVM to succeed is like, you need a solid technology and partnerships. You need, uh, top management alignment and support, and you need the right talent in the team. Uh, but, uh, I bet that it’s not it. Uh, so now you kind of have all the context, but you need to go and play the game, you know, and you need to win.

Adil: [00:19:24] Of course, of course.

Egidijus: [00:19:26] So, and here, um, when we did the research on CVM trends, we asked one question for the CVM teams, and this question was related to autonomy. It’s like, so you have all the kind of, uh, alignment and technology, etc., and how, uh, how autonomous are you to execute what you do. And what I found very interesting was that only one out of three companies, uh, or CVM teams, they say that we can do majority of the things, um, by ourselves. And I was wondering about your perspective is, uh, how do you play the game in your team?

Adil: [00:20:20] So, so, uh, I think, uh, great question. And for me, um, autonomy is probably, uh, something which is very close to, uh, to what I’ve been trying to advocate for a long time and the kind of ecosystem that we set up over the years. I think it’s extremely essential for a function like, uh, look, at the end of the day, the the expectation from a CVM function is that it can go in and understand business problems and help solve those problems, or at least play a role in solving those problems which are which will impact your core KPIs. Or, you know, the the way the business wants to drive and have impact on them. Now, in order to do that, um, it’s again an evolution, uh, the way I see it, that we’ve had. So the building blocks, I already talked about the vision and the partnerships and the setting up the team. Once you do that, there needs to be a constant kind of movement towards a North Star. And the way I see it is that that North Star always needs to be a little out of your reach, um, on how you, you know, so that you keep pushing yourself as well every single year. Then I want to do better.

Egidijus: [00:21:25] And could you.

Egidijus: [00:21:27] Share some example, let’s say, of the of the North Star that you can visualize with the team?

Adil: [00:21:33] Sure, sure. So, um, see, there’s a few things. There’s uh, the more, uh, more tangible things, like, for example, incremental revenues. Um, so, so these are kind of revenues that we set for ourselves every single year. And the idea is that we want to keep increasing the target every year so that we keep pushing ourselves. But then there are more, um, I would say strategic initiatives like digital transformation. And these are some of the the evolution we’ve had in the last few years is that how can we play a stronger role in digital transformation and in creating digital journeys, which are very highly segmented and have an impact? So there are a number of other KPIs that we’ve been trying to push on. But what I’d like to throw in over here is probably a couple of terms that which I, which I’m very, you know, always excited about and passionate about. And I think they’re going to be helpful for your for your viewers as well. One of them is momentum. Um, another is uh compounding effect. And the third R is growth loops. And I’ll talk briefly about what each of them mean and why they are important to me. So, uh, momentum I think, is extremely important because it keeps driving your ship forward. And I think, again, in our previous short conversation, you talked about corporations, you know, being these huge, large ships, which is, uh, definitely true.

Adil: [00:22:57] I mean, it’s not easy to steer a function like CVM in a larger corporation, because at the end of the day, your revenue impact will be limited. And, uh, you know, it’s it’s challenging to get that kind of limelight. So what we have tried to do is that from the day one, we’ve tried to keep scaling our CVM ecosystem. So back in the day, we were using it as a as a simple tool to do campaigns. And then we started embedding in it something rather peculiar. It’s not very many business teams do, but we started getting into the agile development and started building solutions internally within business. And the whole thinking around that was that we want to move towards autonomy, where you don’t want to have too many constraints and dependencies on other sectors or other teams. And since the core philosophy of CVM is to do experimentation and a B testing, therefore you want to have you want to build an ecosystem which is based on a fail fast kind of methodology. So to fail fast, you need to churn out a lot of different solutions and executions and channel integrations, etc.. So that’s how we kind of started building a autonomous solution within CVM where we can where we can engineer solutions ourselves, test them iteratively, see what works, what works. What doesn’t work. And then, you know, improve them further. And this is where I think momentum is extremely important, because you want to ride on the things that are doing well.

Adil: [00:24:28] Um, and um, you want to understand where the feedback loop is or how to get output from what you’ve done. Well, back into the system and learn further. And again, I think just to point out, I feel this is probably one, uh, one of the areas where we normally don’t do too well. We really focus on the sourcing of the data or, you know, analyzing data, doing the segmentation, doing the modeling. But in my opinion, we don’t spend enough time on analyzing the output of the actions that we do. And once you start analyzing them and understanding where you have either done well or not done well, and feed them back into your systems and then iteratively keep improving them. I think this is where the actual momentum comes and you start seeing incrementally better results. So that’s that’s the notion around momentum compounding is, is um, uh, from the thought process that again, when you see CVM, there’s a lot of different moving parts. There’s there’s an engine which is looking at analytics, and there’s another engine which would be doing the modeling, for example, coming up with the recommendation engines. Uh, there’s another engine which is creating the value propositions, another doing the experimentation. It’s about creating that unison between all of these, um, so that you can have a compounding impact.

Adil: [00:25:47] And I’ll give you an example. So we started off by doing some very basic, uh, digital journeys, which were kind of, you know, generated from the CVM side. But once, once we started employing, say, data science models or recommendation engine in them, once we started looking at what’s the best time to engage a customer, what’s the right time once we start started adding the omnichannel aspect of having the same message across various channels and then also started doing digital funnel analytics to understand exactly where the customer drops off from the funnel, and then put that all back into, um, uh, into the solutioning and, you know, improve that or did various experimentation. That’s where we actually see the saw, the compounded impact of all of these. And that drastically, significantly improved our results. So that’s that’s where I feel compounding is extremely important. You cannot rely on individual systems only they you have to create an ecosystem where all of them are talking to each other at the same time. So I think these are two very important terms. Um, the third one, if I just briefly talk about which are growth loops. So again, the traditional mindset of CVM has been or growth has been around the growth funnel. You know, acquisition awareness then engagement retention referral etc.. But in growth loops, um, you start thinking about product and acquisition Acquisition strategy and monetization altogether.

Adil: [00:27:16] And I think this is something that I’ve learned over time. I’ve read up on it and I, you know, got the chance to be part of a few programs where a lot of smart individuals were talking about this, and I’ve tried to employ some of these. Now, this is one area I don’t think we’re still there, but the aspiration is to be able to develop growth loops and to move away from the traditional mindset, which we unfortunately have in the telecom industry still that, you know, you will create a product and then you’ll find a market to push that product. It shouldn’t be like this. It should be that your product and acquisition strategy are working together. And ideally, your product should have certain features which allow it to be sold itself, for example, which allows for growth story itself. So those are features that we’re trying to push towards now. And I think I’ve gone on for a long time. But the thought process And, you know, I’m the reason I’m passionate about is that, we’ve had this evolution, we’ve had this transition from, you know, moving from very basic campaigns to points where we can talk about growth loops in the digital ecosystem. And I think this evolution is extremely important if you want to stay relevant and if you want to continue having impact, uh, in your business.

Exacaster: [00:28:35] If you are interested in customer value management, check out our customer value management body of knowledge. CVMBoK is a comprehensive guide for CVM professionals offering tips, tools, and best practices to help you in your job. Visit cvmbok.com for more.

Egidijus: [00:28:52] So I do what I hear. It’s it’s like I don’t know. It’s a beautiful symphony. You know, I think every, every CVM would like to be uh, in the situation where you are right now, you know, But, uh, now, now the question is, how do you get there? It’s like, uh, from development perspective. For example, uh, when you go from, uh, waterfall type of development to, agile development. Yeah. You just make a promise that you will be faster and deliver better things. But in reality but, uh, what you lose is like, uh, the clear promise, you know, at date A, you will launch product B, which deliver a result C, you know, and in this situation, how do you align all the organization? How do you align this idea with the top management? Because it’s like, you know, you you are basically asking for, uh, time and money to bet on this, on the process that you know, that it will work, but there is no guarantee how it will work, when it will work, what will be the impact? You know?

Adil: [00:30:15] So. So I 100% agree with you. I mean, this is a is a big dilemma. And we were in a very similar situation a few years back. But look, I think there’s no other way to go about this that you have to jump in and you need to have a belief from your management as well. They need to have trust that if they set this up for you, it is a cost. Agreed. And there are chances of failure. Um, and you are there is that learning curve. Like generally I think human nature. Not everybody likes change. So you you’re so used to the waterfall and writing these requirement documents and, you know, having everything structured in a project plan that it’s difficult to move away from this. But what we saw is that when different teams are working together on sprints and you’re working on an iterative, kind of phased approach where you break it down to small wins. I think this is where We took a few projects on board and we said, look, trust us with this. We’re going to try to prove it. Give us a certain amount of time, and we’re going to try to generate results from this. And I think there’s no other way but just to jump in. As I said, and break down the larger goals into smaller ones and build it in an iterative way that go for a small win first, prove it, learn from it, and then iteratively keep building on it.

Adil: [00:31:32] And it was successful for us. I know it’s successful for many for other organizations as well. And I believe this is the only way for a fast paced industry. And for a function like CVM, where you continually need to keep churning out products and solutions, because if you don’t do that fast enough, you will not be able to engage your customer. And I think it’s very important to understand. And one topic that I’m also very interested in is around behavioral science. And if we think of behavioral science and try to go a little deeper into human psychology. It’s very complex. I mean, um, so it varies person to person, definitely. But even for a particular person, it varies based on the kind of context. So if the contextual factors change, if the kind of stimuli that you give to a customer changes the way they interact with your product and the way they react to certain stimuli would change. So I think that’s why I mean, understanding the human psychology and then having enough permutations and combinations and experimentation a b testing is the only way to go about it. That’s the only way you can improve your conversions. Otherwise, you’ll be stuck at the same way of, you know, just having a certain proposition or campaign and, you know, the spray and pray concept, just pushing it to a lot of people and hoping that it works.

Adil: [00:32:52] It’s not the way we’ve operated. And I know a lot of people do not operate this way. It’s about going deeper into understanding consumers. Um, and I think again, uh, data, it’s also about the type of data. First we used to just look at consumer behavior. Um, now a lot since we’ve moved towards digital, it’s about understanding how users actually use or interact in the digital space. So I’ll just throw in a few like, uh, kind of, uh, ways we do this as well. So we use a lot of digital funnel analytics. We study it. We also study how customers, you know, interact with the application. So there’s some very interesting tools out there that you can use to see. How long did they spend on a page? When were they scrolling. What were they looking at. You know that that gives you those cues on how do you need to interact with customers. And then you break it down per segment, for example, that for a certain cohort you need to, uh, position or nudge your customer in a different way versus another segment of customers. So I think it’s that constant, uh, learning. It’s that constant reinvention. It’s that constant investment in tools, technology. This is the only way to grow, honestly.

Egidijus: [00:34:10] So, uh, I totally kind of agree with you. And as I said, it’s like for me, uh, listening for a very mature team, being really fast and actually learning their, uh, their, their path to the future, you know, it’s not like everybody knows what to do. It’s like you need to learn what to do and what will work and, uh, basically find it. And, uh, one question at this, uh, from your, uh, context is how big is your team? Because it seems like I know you are doing crazy a lot of things. It’s like, do you have 500 people?

Adil: [00:34:56] No, no.

Adil: [00:34:57] It’s honestly not that big. Um, our mother company that has a much larger setup on CVM. We’re just around, like, close to ten people. Um, but, you know, and across various disciplines, uh, we’re working together as a team. But overall, uh, as a company and as a, as a country in Bahrain, it’s it’s a small country. So obviously the smaller sized companies. Uh, but the thing is that it’s very rich, very diverse in the type of people, uh, in the type of profile of people. Therefore, you constantly require a lot of, uh, again, analytics and understanding. And since the behavior varies so much, therefore the propositions that you have need to vary as well. So, um, it’s small, but it’s, I would say very rich and diverse.

Egidijus: [00:35:41] Mhm. Okay. So kind of uh, you really double down on that great talent, you know. So, so what the books say, you know, invest in the best talent. Yes. And there is another I would say chicken and egg type of problem. It’s when we were doing the same CVM research we asked CVM teams about, uh, how do we how do we they feel evaluated in the team? Do they feel that the organization, um, kind of values their contribution to the business impact? And the thing that was totally mind blowing for me was that, like that 67% of, uh, teams said, you know, we don’t feel valued. And and for me, it’s like, okay, how how can it be? Why do you think, uh, teams struggle with that? Adele?

Adil: [00:36:42] You know, I would tend to agree with that, actually. And and, um, unfortunately, CVM, as much as, you know, um, interesting in it is it is challenging because at the end of the day, you’re playing, uh, playing, you’re wearing, you’re wearing various hats. You know, you’re trying to do some analytics. You’re trying to do some value propositions. You’re trying to do helping in digital transformation. There’s so many various hats that you wear all the time that you get really stretched really thin. And I think at times the work is so demanding that people working in CVM, uh, I wouldn’t say that, uh, you do feel undervalued at times. Um, uh, it does make sense. But then at the end of the day, I would also have a recommendation and something that I’ve tried to do or try to improve a little is how can you show better impact of your efforts. And I think that’s something that, uh, is required more by professionals or growth professionals. The way I see it, that you do a lot of things, but one needs to be able to quantify, um, the efforts that you are putting in as well.

Adil: [00:37:47] And sometimes I don’t think we do a very good job about it. So for example, if you’re if you’re if you’re building analytical models, one has to be smart on how do you show the impact of those models and then build a story around that. But if you’re putting in all that effort and you’re not able to show actually the value, then you will feel undervalued and and the other and the audience will not understand. It’s similar to like data science as well, like storytelling. I think in data science is extremely essential. It’s a whole discipline because these are complex areas, complex topics similar to CDM, and not everybody understands it. And you cannot expect, for example, your leadership team to understand all the nuances or, you know, the complexities behind a function like CDM. You have to kind of simplify it and even put it in a way that it shows clearly the impact to the audience. And that’s where I feel that the audience will be able to better understand the kind of value that you’re bringing to the table.

Adil: [00:39:56] So, um, uh, the way I would put this is that, like, look, when we started off, uh, within CVM, it was kind of, uh, the foundation for analytics and everything to do with customers, uh, customer facing function, anything to do, which is data driven was from CVM. And when we started setting up the analytics Foundation, it was more to serve CVM. At that point, we realized that we could probably do something bigger. And, uh, I would say kudos to, uh, the leadership team on my side as well. They also saw the value that if we can scale this further, it has a bigger potential to serve a wider audience and the and the wider company. And so that’s kind of how it evolved. Um, and initially we were thinking, let’s just build something we want to transition from the traditional data warehouse. So let’s build something which will self serve like CVM. But then when we saw that it has a bigger potential, we went all in. And again, as I said that we were a little fortunate as well to find some very experienced people who guided us in the right direction and we were able to set something up.

Adil: [00:41:04] But then coming back just to your point, I think that alignment with management or having that very true conversation on what they expect from you and what you need to do and link to that strategic vision, I just think it’s extremely important. You cannot work in a silo because a function like CVM as well is, is quite heavy in terms of investment, like as I said, and not only investing in human capital but also in tools, and it requires a constant investment if you want to keep, as I explain, keep growing and keep having an impact. So having that constant investment is is usually not only based on the impact, but also on that trust. And also having that, um, you know, kind of buy in from management. So that’s where I feel that it’s extremely essential. And I mentioned this a couple of times, but I would say it’s one of the key things that I’ve tried to focus on from day one.

Egidijus: [00:41:57] That’s a very interesting, uh, message. Uh, I would say, but, uh, and is it kind of, um, is it a cultural thing in, let’s say, Bahrain, where that the, let’s say the organization is very open to discuss and have these, as you said, honest conversations, uh, where the expectations are clear, etc., because kind of when we talk with many different, let’s say, countries, sometimes it’s a cultural thing. You know, the top management said, uh, and, you know, it’s, uh, that’s it. You don’t have, uh, kind of your opinion is not necessary. So is it like a cultural thing in Bahrain, or is it, uh, in your organization? Kind of. How do you see that?

Adil: [00:42:45] So so yeah, that’s a good point. Good observation. I would say like you’re right to some extent. And I have worked in other organizations where it’s been more difficult to set up this autonomy. So I would say that a part of it is, is based on the fact that the kind of say, you know, leadership. We have a very little, for example, bureaucracy. We have, uh, and because of that, we’ve been able to have these conversations right from day one and continue to have them to see mutually how we can grow something. So that has been helpful. I wouldn’t, uh, you know, put that as a wouldn’t say that that’s not a factor. Um, that is one factor. And the other is that, you know, you continue to strive, continue to show results. I mean, if the last thing you want is that management or leadership has distrust in you and they invest in you and you’re not able to deliver. So so that can also then go south very quickly.

Adil: [00:43:36] So it has to be a combination of the two. Uh, but but that’s a good observation. We, we do have a very open culture, and fortunately, that’s allowed us to also scale CVM in the manner that we have today.

Egidijus: [00:43:49] Uh, okay. So it’s like, uh, you need to ask for the trust and then deliver results.

Adil: [00:46:50] I think we talked a little about the team, and I think that’s where you really need to trust individuals. I mean, if we go back to what I mentioned in the beginning is that, um, I’ve been a little particular and hiring people and hiring the right kind of people who have the right attitude, who have the right passion, uh, who are in it with me for the for the long run, you know, for the for the game. So, uh, at the same time, when you hire such individuals, you hire them for a reason that you want to trust them. You want to give them autonomy as well. And, uh, one thing that it took me time, honestly, to kind of pull back from this, I would always have this, you know, um, you know, can I, can I give this to his team? But I should be a little involved as well. Maybe I need to look at the work before it gets, you know, submitted or before the document goes out and, you know, even on my, uh, when I would be on vacation, I would try to be involved. But, you know, at one point I realized that, you know, I’ve invested and we’re working together as a team for a reason, that you need to trust people and you need to pull back, uh, once the team matures. And, uh, with time, I’ve learned that that, uh, as you grow, you need to trust people and you need to trust your team. And I think that from that perspective, I’m now in a situation when I go on vacation. Or maybe I just get a couple of calls, which I’m very happy about.

Adil: [00:48:08] So, so I think, yeah, that’s that’s the way.

Egidijus: [00:48:13] That’s, uh, that’s a very inspirational talk. You know, for every leader to to think about the team and to make sure that the team can deliver when you are, uh, with your family and, uh, with your children’s most important moments in their lives. So let’s talk about your favorite failure. You know, uh, kind of. I don’t treat a CVM. CVM. If they didn’t send the wrong message to the whole base, you know?

Adil: [00:48:44] So that’s happened many times.

Adil: [00:48:49] That’s probably over the time. Yeah. Um, failures. Look, I would say there are a number of small failures. Like, as you said, there’s no way we we don’t have failures. There’s been so many times, you know, wrong message or, you know, you’ve you’ve done certain, like, very silly things, but, um, if I would, I would kind of, uh, answer this in a slightly different way. I would say rather than, uh, biggest failure, I would say it’s more about regret. And I read this very interesting article some time back by some economist. He had done research across a number of, of, uh, people like a significant sample. And based on his research, uh, 42% of the reason for regret, uh, was inaction. And I think that’s probably one thing if I think I think of it now, um, this is the first podcast I’ve come in, and this is the first time I’m kind of, uh, talking about my experiences and CVM and growth openly. Um, I kind of there’s a regret that I should have done this earlier, and I wouldn’t say it’s really a failure, but it’s more of a regret, in my view. That and I think it’s really important, like what you guys are doing is wonderful because it allows for more collaboration. And I think all of us have rich experience. We can learn from each other, we can collaborate, and we can definitely share these stories. And I wish I had done this earlier, but it’s, I think, better late than never.

Egidijus: [00:50:12] This is such a great, uh, kind of lesson that it’s this is – wow. I am noting that for myself as well. Um, I see that you learn a lot. Uh, what would be your, uh, Um, recommendations, you know, for professionals like us to, to grow in this field.

Adil: [00:50:39] Um, so, so there’s a number of books which I know your audience probably already reads about around, you know, growth, growth, hacking, etc.. I would say because I talked about behavioral science and I read this one very interesting book called alchemy. I don’t know if you’ve read it by a writer called Rory Sutherland.

Egidijus: [00:50:58] I haven’t read that one.

Adil: [00:50:59] Okay.

Adil: [00:51:00] So he’s, um, he’s basically the, uh, the, I think the vice chairman of Ogilvy, one of the largest, uh, advertising agencies. And he has a very interesting take on human psychology and behavioral science. So I think that’s one book I read maybe a few years back. And it really helped me think more, especially when we were transitioning towards digital journeys and thinking from more from a consumer journey perspective. It helped kind of polish my thinking. So I think that’s one book. Definitely. I would recommend everybody to read alchemy. Apart from this, um, um, I talked about, uh, slightly about, uh, my experience of working with other growth professionals on a platform called reforge. So I think that was, uh, extremely it was very beneficial to me. That was like a one year program. I did various courses on it. But most importantly, the great thing about the platform is that you get to collaborate with other growth professionals from all over the world, like in the tech industry, in different industries. And and the amazing thing was that we were all talking around the same language. Uh, we’re talking about the same kind of problems, uh, the same kind of aspirational aspirations, irrespective of the industry. So for me, that was a great experience of spending that one year, uh, on the platform of reforge. Um, third thing, and I would say, uh, it’s it’s a podcast, actually, it’s not relatively it’s not exactly related to CVM, but I follow, uh, one podcast host called Lex Fridman, uh, a huge fan of him.

Egidijus: [00:52:29] I’m also a huge fan.

Adil: [00:52:32] And the thing is that I think at times we need to, um, open our minds. I mean, at a lot of time, we get so indulged in, you know, in our work, and it becomes very narrow, uh, even though as CVM, we’re doing so many things, but still, uh, you kind of start getting this tunnel vision. So I think it’s extremely important to open the mind, uh, topics which, for example, Lex covers are across everything from psychology to, you know, uh, talking about technology to talking about, you know, history. So once you start doing that, it also helps you kind of look at the bigger picture. And a lot of times it helps you look at things differently. What you were doing in retrospect. So I would say these three sources have been, uh, kind of a source of inspiration for me. Uh, so that’s why I would like to share them.

Egidijus: [00:53:23] Uh, these are fantastic sources. Uh, and I share at least like one of them. Well, reading, reading and listening for the books. It’s my thing as well. Um. And I have the last thing. You know, we are on this mission of, like, uh, making CVM’s famous. You know, it’s like, uh, it is still a small discipline, I would say, in marketing area. And, uh, what would be your advice? Uh, how can we make, uh, CVM’s famous, you know.

Adil: [00:54:01] So the the advice would be to do what I’m doing right now. Just speak up. Uh, I think it’s, again, it’s about either speaking, uh, collaborating, writing articles, sharing your experiences. Um, and as I said, I have this kind of a regret that I should have started earlier, but still, I think something I would recommend to everybody and maybe even beyond like CVM and growth. It’s to all professionals that all of us are, you know, who have rich experiences. There’s so much to share in terms of knowledge that could be benefit to others as well, and collaboration. So I would that’s the recommendation I would give just, you know, go out there, talk about it or write about it, and I’m sure it’s going to be beneficial.

Egidijus: [00:54:46] Fantastic. We invite everybody to to do it. Thank you Adil. It was a very rich conversation. I learned a lot about building a CVM growth machine. I hope that you, uh, it was a good thing for you as well.

Adil: [00:55:04] No. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. It was a total pleasure.

Exacaster: [00:55:09] CVM Stories is produced by Exacaster. We help companies take their customer value management to the next level. To stay updated on our latest episodes, subscribe to the podcast or sign up for an email newsletter at exacaster.com/cvmstories.