Create a High-Impact CVM Team that Delivers More with Less

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Irena: At first it was hard for us. Okay, how we will do it. Then we had help. But now we are really happy because you know, you don’t depend from anybody. And this is also one part of the efficiency that you can have everything in your home, let’s say, like that.

[00:00:13] Exacaster: Welcome to CVM stories, the podcast on customer value management. Together we explore how companies can be more successful and their customers happier through the use of the latest customer value management techniques. Learn key commercial and analytical insights from telecoms, retail, finance and other industries that drive CVM forward.

[00:00:31] Egidijus: Hi, I’m your host, Egidijus. Today our guest is Irena Radokanović from Serbia. Irena has over 18 years of experience in telco, banking and retail industries. Today, she is bringing a wealth of knowledge as well as her massive energy and enthusiasm for the field. In this episode, we will explore how to build resourceful and efficient CVM teams. So let’s meet  Irena. Hi, Irena. Thank you for joining us today.

[00:01:07] Irena: Hi. Thank thank you for having me.

[00:01:10] Egidijus: Irena, when we met with you for the first time, I was kind of super impressed with your know how and with your huge energy. So I can tell I can spoil to my audience that today we are really talking with a real CVM guru. So you are working in this field? I don’t know, for the last 15 years or so. Yeah. In in marketing. Yes. So what keeps you here? You know what? What keeps you motivated to to work in this field?

[00:01:43] Irena: Yeah. Uh, thank you for your questions and for your introduction. Uh, well, yes, it’s almost like 18 years. I was just thinking about it yesterday, and, like, still, I have the energy and the drive. I would say to, you know, to come to the office, home or real office doesn’t matter. But still to do. To do this kind of work. Well, uh, actually, uh, what drives me is this because CDM or CRM or marketing automation, however we call it these days, uh, what I love about this part of marketing is that it combines the creativity and the data. So basically you can play really play in the field of marketing, testing a lot of things and doing things based on data. So really excellent. And you can have the results and you can see what you are doing really fast. So this is like a common ground that I think keeps me in this field because it’s always, you know, changing and you can see the results, uh, really fast of your actions.

[00:02:41] Egidijus: So you are a true person of, uh, kind of action and the numbers and the kind of, uh, experiments.

[00:02:50] Irena: Yes. I like that combination because actually I started my career in Deloitte. It’s like, uh, audit and advisory. So I was like, my first year was in Excel sheets in like. Everything. And that was too much for me. So I said, okay, this is not something that I want. To, you know, pursue for the for the rest of my life. At that moment, I thought, you know. When you choose career, it’s like that. Uh, but then I found this combination of, uh, using the figures and the data, but not in that deep level, but combining with with the insights from the market, with the knowledge about your customers, with, uh, like, uh, trends that are happening in the industry. So all that combined together, that is what, what drives me. And I think it suits me well.

[00:03:34] Egidijus: Um, so, um, Irena, today, our kind of one of the themes of this podcast is how to build a really efficient and resourceful CVM teams. And so just to set the context, uh, could you describe your team, how big is your team, what it is responsible for? Uh, etc..

[00:03:58] Irena: Yes. Okay, so maybe I can start from, uh, today, like, my team, uh, is like seven professionals, and I really say professionals, like, really, uh, senior ones with a lot of knowledge. And, uh, basically, we are responsible for all the direct campaigns, uh, going towards our customer base. And it is also residential and business based. Uh, we are working on, uh, SMS campaigns, Viber, uh, newsletters, uh, uh, making lists for our customer telesales teams. So this is, I would say, really operational daily job to job when somebody from the company, when you would ask somebody, he will tell you like, this is what we are working. But uh, basically I would say we are working on four fields, like, uh, what, what skills do we need? And do we have to have, like, really good operational team. Uh, and first one is analytics. So, uh, we are really strong. Um, in seeing, uh, who you need to target. Why? To target them. What are the results? Uh, also, we have, uh, a very I would say, uh, uh, strong also buy team, which is along with the reports. But the analysis part, this is something that is really important and we can talk later about it, but also about, uh, machine learning models and things like that that we are using. Uh, so second part I would say is business planning. So what do you do with all those results and what do you do with the company goals and the strategy that we need to to to do so? How do you do campaigns. So it is basically a role of a campaign planner, I would say who has a more of a bit of a business knowledge, but also very good planning skills and, um, knowledge, how to use the analytics and how to translate that into some really actions and campaigns that will bring us, uh, value.

[00:05:49] Irena: But depending on the KPIs. Uh, then it is also, I think last year’s a lot about execution because we have new marketing automation tool and we have a different platforms. You know, we want to see where our customers are on a different channels, even a little bit more on digital. So I think this part of the execution and about the tools and martech that is coming is really important. So we are also a lot, uh, we have, uh, I have colleagues who are working, uh, heavily on that, uh, on our, on our tools. Uh, and also maybe the last thing is, uh, communication and content itself. Uh, so, you know, in my career, in some roles, content was not in the CDM or CRM department. But now, uh, I like to say for, for my team that we are like a little agency, you know, in the, in the, in the company because we also have we also have like copywriting skills. We, we are writing the emails, the newsletters, the all the communications. And also we are building the newsletters. So it is also a little bit of, of a of a programming. So basically we are capable to do really direct campaigns mostly ourselves. Like this is why we often say a little direct marketing agency even. Yes.

[00:07:10] Egidijus: It sounds like you are a CEO of the company, you know. So how many people do you have? Is it like it sounds like 20, you know?

[00:07:16] Irena: No, no no, no, I was talking about roles. I mean, in Serbia we are very resourceful. I would say, you know, because, uh, we, we, we like to do I mean, we, we like to do things efficiently, I would say. So sometimes you, uh, you know, you want to have really good results and everything, and you need to find a way. So basically all of this we don’t have like divided, but almost everybody knows some parts more, some parts less. But seven people we are we are covering this uh, this uh roles. And also just to add, maybe this is not in all CRM teams, but we are also responsible for Loyalty Club and for these partnerships with different uh, with different uh, uh, companies, let’s say like that.

[00:08:02] Egidijus: Um, so, so, so seven people are responsible for analytics, planning of campaigns, implementing and marketing automation campaigns, communication part and content, uh, etc. and then loyalty and partner management.

[00:08:22] Irena: Yes. Yeah. Now, when I tell you, it seems a lot, but I have. Yes, but I have to tell you, like I mentioned, okay, we have uh, also other departments that we are working really heavily with. So like on a daily basis. And this is like a by department. They are working on a machine learning models and also on the, on the reports. But we are doing all the analysis and the insights that we want to use and also with the product teams because they are responsible for the offerings and for the core product that that that we are communicating. So maybe those two roles are also very, very important as well as marketing communications because of the content that we are sharing. So yeah, so I will list the total company.

[00:09:09] Egidijus: Yeah, I know CVM is a very cross-functional, you know, uh, organization. And as I said in the beginning of the conversation, uh, the only thing that you really don’t like is the energy, you know, uh, with such a small team driving so many functions. But, uh, so, uh, Irena, uh, um, what is your definition of an efficient CVM team? Because it seems that you are going with lots of energy, doing a lot of stuff. So what what is an efficient, efficient team for you?

[00:09:45] Irena: Yeah. Well, you know, when I think about efficiency. I would say two things like you are saying team efficiency, which is very important, but it’s also then very I mean, it’s connected, but how do we keep campaigns efficient? Because, you know, for every campaign we can do everything we can do every channel, we can do a lot of content. But then it is about how and what we will do and what we will not do in terms of implementation, but for the team efficiency. I mean, because we formed in this way as a marketing automation team, like maybe two years ago, and then we, uh, we start working on the, on the processes because it was very important for us, uh, as a team because we have almost, uh, every sector of the company in some point coming to us asking to do some kind of a campaign. And then this is, I would say, ad hoc campaigns. And then we have also our roadmap and things that we are initiating and working on. So basically we made a process. I will just simplify it and like go through main steps. But basically once a month we have a campaign planning meeting with almost total like all companies, sectors are there and we have a calendar. And then they uh, they do some like requests or wishes or, uh, requests for campaigns, let’s say, like that. And then, um, after that we have our internal, uh, sprint plan planning because we are working, uh, on a monthly basis. And we also use JIRA as a system to have all the requests at one place with all the necessary information, because as you can see, I mean, we have a lot of different segments to cover a lot of information, and it’s really important for us to have that, uh, in one place, because previously we were doing that through emails, you know, through meetings.

[00:11:30] Irena: But then we say, okay, we can have meetings, we can have email, whatever, but please put everything in the JIRA so we can have everything at one place in order just to avoid mistakes, because we really don’t like to be like bureaucrats or something like that. But it’s really important because it happens. I mean, you know, we are we are all humans. So, uh, after that meeting, we have our, uh, team campaign, uh, planning sessions where we plan, which are the campaigns, who will work on what. And we do everything that the, uh, also in Jira. So we have a sprint planning, and then we have sprint on a monthly, on a monthly basis. And we know which campaigns are working, like going on regularly. So we know, like who will work on them and who will take something new. We discuss that on the meetings. And then we do like a first analysis of what we will do in some campaign we use newsletter. What is the target group? What would be the KPIs to track? Um, uh, and uh, basically that’s it. Then we come back to our stakeholders telling, okay, this will look like that, it will come on this date and things like that.

[00:12:34] Egidijus: Um, and uh, so this is a super interesting part where I know that everybody struggles, you know, uh, you as a team, which is responsible to communicate offers with the clients and need to deal with the different company objectives and different products. So, for example, now a TV product says push me and then broadband says no, no, no, push me. And then, you know, mobile devices says you need to send those messages, you know, so how how do you decide what to do?

[00:13:11] Irena: Well, it is hard and sometimes. Yeah, it’s like we usually manage to not to satisfy everybody. I don’t like that. But to uh, to come with a most like meaningful communication in terms of what will company benefit the most. So basically we know our KPIs. We know what you know, what is the most important. Because we have our strategy. We know what are the segments and products that are, uh, that are, let’s say in the, in the moment, important. I mean, for us, it’s always like, renewables. Some campaigns that we have. So it is like a standard basic. But you know what is happening also not only on the level of products but also on the level of the channels we have, like request okay, this month, can you push, uh, I don’t know, more online store. Uh, not no, no. You know, it’s not like, uh, don’t push customers to the actual physical store. But so we do like because we don’t have exact plans in terms of how customers will come, like buy something online. But we have also those kind of discussions. Where do we want to push something? So, uh, basically based on strategy and some roadmap that we have, this is how how we decide and there is a lot of talks, I would say a lot of talks between managers and the department heads, like what is, uh, what is the goal? And, um, you know, because everything, uh, if you want direct communication ends up with us. So sometimes we even have some requests like, okay, is this really happening? Like, do we, you know, do we support it or not? But it’s usually like, uh, very straightforwardly communicated and and it it is, it is. Okay. But it can be, uh, a lot of things at once.

[00:14:52] Egidijus: Uh, but, uh, but do you have, let’s say, the power to make the last decision or the last call or is it, uh, like, just kind of, uh, the meeting is that decides, you know.

[00:15:05] Irena: It’s it’s usually the meeting that decides. I mean, sometimes, yes, we have. I mean, I check with, uh, like everybody. Is this really important? Do we need to go now or can we move it because we have this and that, and it’s usually an agreement, like we I really didn’t have situations where I had to say like, okay, we really cannot do this anyhow. We just come to some not compromise, but decide, uh, where to use it because usually, uh, I mean, I’m lucky that, you know, majority of my colleagues are really, you know, uh, how to say reasonable people. Yeah.

[00:15:38] Egidijus: And, uh, I have one non-obvious question in this case. So, uh, it seems that you made a mindful decision to align everybody in a single meeting. And, uh, how how come did you came to the decision that you need a meeting where all stakeholders basically align?

[00:15:58] Irena: Uh, well, because it’s, you know, this is a meeting that I don’t know it when when we establish it, maybe even before I came to the company, I don’t remember, but, uh, basically, the need for that meeting, uh, started because there were a lot of campaigns and nobody, you know, knew when something will come and that that calendar that is output of the meeting. It is not useful just for us, but also for the call center for the shops because they know, okay, on 17th there is email campaign going towards, uh, you know, selling a TV product. Uh, I mean, of course we have, uh, other ways how we inform our first lines about everything, but this is also so it started from that need. Like there is a lot of things going on. We need to say like and have everything in one place when something is going. And at first it was just SMS calendar because you know, as a telco company we are lucky to have SMS as our channel. I would say yes. Yeah, yeah, that is the truth. Uh, so uh, but now it is, let’s say direct communication calendar containing information about every channel that we are responsible.

[00:17:11] Egidijus: Okay. So um, so basically you build you have built a really streamlined, efficient process how to align the whole organization, what will be the communication with the clients. And you also mentioned that you have kind of maximum you are working a lot on maximizing the efficiency of every channel. Could you describe a bit more on this process as well?

[00:17:36] Irena: Yes, I would say that here we are on a start. So I don’t have any bright ideas now to to share like that. We proved. But this is something that questions that we question a lot like okay for some campaign do we use newsletter because for the newsletter you know you have to do some kind of technical preparation then to do a content and to have pictures. I mean, now I’m really talking operationally and this is one side and then the other side is what is most efficient to our customer. Will he open the newsletter or do he prefers SMS. Uh and usually, you know this is a hard decision what what to do. Because we want to do what is the best for the customer and for the KPI that we are targeting. So we are testing here. I mean, we are really testing, you know, uh, with the SMS versus newsletter, with the SMS versus newsletter followed by SMS. Then also we have hyper communication in Serbia, Viber is the more used than for example, WhatsApp. So we also tested that. And it has conclusions, you know, for the type of campaigns we have some. But, um, it’s not now like we have a Bible like for this use that. But we are really working on, uh, on, uh, based on that small experiments and on, uh, like a common sense, what we want to use there. For example, if you have some complex service. Yes, we will say everything in the newsletter. If you have something explained on a web SMS with a link, yeah, it can be done. It depends also on the timing, but also what we want to communicate and what is the what is the the KPI.

[00:19:13] Egidijus: And how ready is, let’s say how how people in Serbia are ready for, you know, more digital channels. So it’s like, uh, I don’t know how many people go to mobile app or self-service or use the same Viber. Uh, what are at least approximate distributions there, you know.

[00:19:36] Irena: Yes. Where we are. When I was finishing last Answer, like I was wanting to mention the application that we have my A1 app where we like 2 or 3 years ago made every customer journey where that makes sense with a push to application, because we see a huge like increase of customers going to the my A1 app. And we really pushed that and helped the, the, the product, uh, team, you know, to achieve more customers there. I mean, so we are happy about it and customers are going there and we have our strategy also with our, uh, relationship with life cycle, uh, strategy that we have almost to push everything on the application and not because of the application itself, but it is easier for the customer. And we tend to push because we have a lot of benefits giving to the customers on some moment of their lifetime. Uh, and we are putting everything there. We are also working on some, uh, better user experience there. So we have a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, uh, things there. What I’m trying to say for some things, application is very good. For example, if you have some, uh, I don’t know, uh, short term, uh, things that you want to achieve if you are giving some benefits that are like for one month or, you know, something that needs to be done fast, uh, then we say, okay, go to the application, we send push notification. Uh, so it’s for some like things that are more simple and uh, uh, need to be done fast, like more of a retail, I would say approach.

[00:21:16] Egidijus: Uh, and, uh, do you, uh, kind of when you think, uh, when you are searching for, let’s say, the optimal channel for customer, uh, kind of do you build some, I don’t know, preference attributes for every customer. Where are their preferred channels or kind of operate more on a segment basis. It’s like, yeah, how to find that optimal channel and then leverage it forever. You know.

[00:21:44] Irena: This is our next step for like for example, now we are working on preferred offers and we want to automate that. And then we will come to the channels. Now it is really I would say manually but it bugs us like what what we need to do there. So we do a lot of tests like I said, but it’s not uh, not something uh, automated. But uh, our other opcodes for from A1 are really working heavily on that. So I think it will come also here because we know what we want to do. But first, uh, we want to cover other things. So yeah, but it will be great to have something like that because we want to have this channel preference model and then it will be really easier for us.

[00:22:26] Egidijus: Mhm. And you mentioned uh like um, something that other opcodes for me one are using, etc.. Uh, are you actually sharing the know how between the different countries and let’s see, what are the benefits about that for you as a local team lead. You know.

[00:22:46] Irena: Yes, yes. We really I mean, what is great about A1 Group is that we have really, uh, group support and also support from the other opcodes. So, uh, we have uh, some programs that are uh, on a group level. But then really, uh, I would say execution in the countries. Uh, so for example, we have one program which is, uh, really based on machine learning models and some recommendations that we want to do. Uh, and then it is almost in every country and we have help like with the know how. And then we share between countries, uh, what are the best practices? Uh, you know, what goes well, what not so well, because, uh, uh, we are also lucky that A1 is in the Balkan countries. So we have a lot of similarities, you know, so we can share like, yeah, we can share and we can, we can use that. But on the other hand, each country has its own specifics. So, you know, you don’t you cannot, uh, take it and just use it, uh, because the customers are really, really, uh, behaving differently.

[00:23:47] Egidijus: Mhm. And do you feel like a competition with other countries. You know, it’s like uh.

[00:23:53] Irena: Yeah, it can be, it can be a, you can have something. It depends. So I would say on a team leader and on a country like on the spirit. But, but yes. Yeah. It can be like that. Yeah. Uh, usually it is like who will be the first one to try something new or something like that? We like to brag about those kind of things, I think. Yeah.

[00:24:12] Egidijus: Uh, okay. So I also heard that you do a lot of testing on the messaging part besides kind of trying out the channels. Uh, could you could you talk about, uh, this aspect because you are in a very good position. You have, you know, communication guys in your team. You can write as many different content as you want, you know.

[00:24:35] Irena: Yes. I mean, it all depends on the aspect, like you say. Yeah. I mean, first when we started like two years ago when we reformed, I would say the team and our role, uh, the communication part was done from digital team, but then, uh, then it just, uh, went to us. So, uh, you know, I don’t have anybody specific like, who is doing content, but what we did is we had a really good trainings with one, uh, external, uh, marketing agency, actually non marketing agency because we wanted to we wanted just to be able to communicate with our customers really, uh, in a good way, in a fair and simple way to avoid that corpo, you know, language. And then we didn’t have those kind of skills of, of a copywriter. So we did a lot of trainings and uh, few of us in a team really, you know, are working on a, on a content. So that gave us like the confidence, I would say, and the freedom to, you know, try some things out like, uh, uh, how do we communicate? Uh, uh, do we do simple communication, uh, or do we do something else? We are testing a lot. I mean, it is common, but like subject lines.

[00:25:45] Irena: Uh, then the tone of the message, uh, for some things, for example, uh, we launched Netflix, uh, I don’t know, a few months ago. So it is really like, I’m really happy to have it, not only because of the service, but because Netflix has a lot of content. And then we can play what we are communicating to each customers and really test what works on on what, uh, on what segments and what what doesn’t. Uh, so these are kind of the things, uh, we also want in the future to, to, uh, test, uh, the look of the newsletter in terms of what’s, what is where is the button and everything. But we are really, uh, now focus on more on the content on the content part. And, uh, it is I would say, uh, like like you said, we are lucky to have everything at one place. And at first it was hard for us. Okay, how we will do it. Then we had help, but now we are really happy because, you know, you don’t depend, uh, from anybody. And this is also, I think, one part of the efficiency that you can have everything, uh, in your home, let’s say, like that.

[00:26:50] Exacaster: If you are interested in customer value management, check out our customer value Management body of knowledge. Cvm blog is a comprehensive guide for CVM professionals offering tips, tools, and best practices to help you in your job. Visit CVM NBC.com for more.

[00:27:07] Egidijus: Uh, Irena, could you share some, let’s say, uh, learnings from this part? So, uh, for example, what were, let’s say, your biggest differences between conversion rates or something like that, where you saw that this is a pure message, kind of copywriting impact, uh, in your, uh, campaigns. Um.

[00:27:30] Irena: Well, yeah, we tested a lot. Like, uh, do we put a general message or a really specific one? Like, do we say. I mean, I’m now just imagining, like, uh, do we say go on a Netflix and watch the movies? Or do we say today this is the best movie for you? Like top one movie in Serbia that is, uh, that you can or like, we did a lot of things, um, because we have a lifestyle segmentation and then what the message is for what lifestyle. So we are basically testing also the lifestyle communication. Uh, is it like good. And then what will suit to what will suit to to to that lifestyle. So basically our conclusion is that more concrete messages, uh, you know, for some cases depending on which lifestyle are bringing us more, more open rates and more click rates. Uh, this is one part. And then another part is, um, uh, when when we learned how to really efficiently communicate, uh, clear messages, like with the steps, what to do with the direct, uh, tone and, uh, direct directly saying what to do with your account. Not like account or something. It’s maybe hard now to translate, but this is also something that really gave us, uh, I would say a push, uh, to, to see the more open rates, to see that customers are really, uh, really responding to the, to the messages.

[00:28:57] Egidijus: So do I understand correctly that kind of general branding communication. It does not enable customers to do the action. If you if you go really clear for the customer what action to make, you basically help them to make that action.

[00:29:13] Irena: Uh, yes. Basically if you say it’s better to say like, uh, but it depends also on the context because for example, we did some roaming campaigns. And if you say because roaming customer journey or travel customer journey is a really complex one and you do a lot of preparations for it. So for that kind of a journey, it’s better to say General one because, uh, you know, you will not probably receive. We don’t know when you will travel, but we know that you want to prepare. So if you have we have something for your travel then, okay. It stays in your mind. But for example, for the Netflix that you can watch and activate really fast and do it like, uh, in two hours from receiving our message, it’s better to have more, more concrete ones. So it depends basically on what you are, what you’re communicating. Uh, and also about the I don’t know, for example, for roaming also about the season, you know, for some things, uh, you can do more concrete some not so. So, yes.

[00:30:08] Egidijus: So, um, okay. Um, I think these are very important insights, uh, because I remember when, when I was doing the campaigns, we always prioritized, you know, that the brand voice would be really nice and etc. but we did not focus on customer perspective too much. But if we zoom back, um, uh, one really interesting question for me is, um, how does your daily work distribution look like? When we think about ad hoc activities, you know, and do fire fighting against, you know, competitors did something, etc., versus your strategic roadmap. So how much time does your team spend on on each of those topics? You know.

[00:30:59] Irena: Uh, yeah. This is interesting questions because there is always some ad hoc and some firefighting and some, uh, regulatory things that we need to do. And, you know, usually, uh, it takes a lot of time and effort. Well, basically, I don’t know, uh, we try really to have, uh, everything planned. Everything. I mean, uh, 80% of the monthly communication, let’s say, like that. But we are very aware, you know, when things are changing and that we need to react fast, um, and to be flexible. So it happens. It happens. Uh, I wouldn’t say a lot, but, uh, it happens. And then we are trying really to be flexible because, I mean, my team and we, we are really lucky that, uh, we have a lot of knowledge and a lot of knowledge about from other teams how things are functioning so we can do something fast, even to help them to do something. So, uh, when those kind of situations happen, then it’s like I would say almost all members of the team are participating, you know, trying to do that as fast as possible. Uh, and not to not to take as much time, but, uh, you know, some decisions that are made, like on a top level when we have to, you know, do some things fast. I mean, uh, we really try to do it, uh, in an Inefficient way, like not to have too much. I wouldn’t say questions, but to have really fast decisions and to check with everybody who is relevant. Because when something is in a fast manner, you can you can have mistakes. I mean, it always happens. So we really try to to double check, you know, this is why everybody is there and working on that.

[00:32:38] Egidijus: It’s like it remembers me. The mantra move fast and break things, you know? But uh, uh, from everything what you are talking, uh, talking about Irena, it seems that your team is very kind of integral with the company trying to achieve the results very fast. It’s it seems that it’s really fun to to work in your team.

[00:33:01] Irena: Uh, hopefully. Yes. And. Yeah, hopefully. Yes, for the fun part. And, uh, I don’t know, for the integration with the company, I think we have, uh, more work also to do that because with some departments it is like that because they know what we are capable of and how can we bring business value, which is very, very important to me and to the team. But for the other parts, you know, we are working on working on that. So I would say it is not half half, but uh, but we still have like we can bring more, even more value I would say.

[00:33:35] Egidijus: Mhm. And if you are searching for a new team member for your team, what uh qualities uh, you know, you are searching at, you know, besides that I don’t know, you have the technical uh know how etc..

[00:33:53] Irena: Yeah. Well this is the situation now, this is why I’m laughing because we just had, like, uh, our, uh, our job posting finished. So we are now in the process of selection. Well, basically, uh, you know, okay, technical things, but I think it’s more about the attitude that you want to learn, that you are open that because in our area, the things that are really moving fast. You know, today you are working in one environment. Tomorrow it will be something else which, you know, like five years ago we knew that like the web integrations are very hard. Now we have to have those kind of knowledges and what is happening on the digital, where can we target customer like that is in our base? Do we send him free newsletter or do we? So, you know, five years ago this was just beginning as a topics at least in from my experience. So you need to be open uh, to know that things will be changed, you know, will be changing constantly. And, uh, to have that attitude that you will that you want to learn it, that it is not like a problem for you. And also what is important is this, uh, I would say business part that, uh, okay. Our KPIs. Yes. Click rates, open rates. But we need to really be aware how we are contributing to the business, you know, and to the KPIs. I wouldn’t say other teams, but our KPIs that are like hard packed revenue KPIs. So you have to think for every campaign and everything. Okay, how am I bringing value with this activity and how is what is the best way to to bring value? No matter if you are working on a copy or uh, just uh, uh, some other part. But this is the mindset that, that I think is good for the team.

[00:35:36] Egidijus: So if I would have to make a bet, I bet that your team has adopted Genii very fast, at least in optimizing their work.

[00:35:48] Irena: Well, for some questions. Yes. I mean, at least. But yeah, we are working on that. We are actually working on that. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Not not using it. Uh, but we have some uh, we have some activities around that. We would like that to be faster, but, uh, but we will come there.

[00:36:07] Egidijus: As you have worked in other industries as well. I am really wondering, how do you see the differences between the industries that you worked in like banking, retail, telco? What did you learn from every every of those, you know?

[00:36:27] Irena: Yeah. Well, for me, you know, when I started I started in telco and this was really early days of, of a telco. Uh, and I was working for the, that company like more than ten years, uh, ten years. But uh, uh, I also worked, uh, for the digital bank of, uh, of that company. So it was my first switch to the other industry. I don’t count, uh, Deloitte and advisory because it was short time. And then for me, uh, when I switch to the digital banking, uh, basically, it was the same company. So it was really nice. I would say transition. Uh, but that was like, how do we use data? How do we target customers with completely different Offerings, because for me, the banking products was like, you know, completely new field. And I knew, you know, how customers would react if we offer data, if we offer, I don’t know, music or, uh, even loans with the banks or with the cards, but it was completely different when you have to offer credit card, uh, and, uh, for me, uh, you know, we try to implement that telco learning that customer comes first and that that segment, you really need to, um, know them and know how to offer something. And, you know, uh, because in the banking from my experience before, before this bank, it was really I mean, the very straightforward, you know, you have this credit for the cash and take it or leave it. But we tried really to see which is what is that segment.

[00:37:59] Irena: How do we offer that to them with what kind of limits? But uh, from my experience, I mean, the, uh, banking is really, I would say rigid, uh, rigid, the industry in terms of what and how you can offer. And how long can you offer something to the customers? Uh, what is the communication? Uh, because you are, uh, really regulatory, uh, driven in terms you have to say, like these kind of things if you’re offering credit. So you cannot use SMS or something like that, or you can, but with a lot of restrictions. So it was really hard, you know, but uh, what was what was the good part is that, uh, the bank that, uh, the telco that I was working for then, uh, was, uh, was working on it was the first online bank in Serbia. So we wanted to do everything online, everything through app, uh, and uh, really to offer this great customer experience. So in that point, it was easier to have this transition from traditional banking to, to the more digital one, you know, because we really wanted to push, uh, those kind of channels and to have everything, uh, everything online, like, you don’t have to come to the bank, uh, even at once or no things like that. So that that was my learning, like, okay, segmentation because, uh, what I think is really good, I learned early in my career is this, uh, customer view and how to segment them and what are the customer needs and how are we coming from the proposition point.

[00:39:25] Irena: And to answer that needs. And I think this is the basis for everything. Okay. Uh, then how channels it comes it comes later. But what are the need. And then you can translate that also into CRM in terms of do I offer a data add on or do I offer loan? Because I see that every I don’t know, end of the month. You are, you know, not using something that. So you know this is how do we respond to the need. So this is this is what I translated there. And then after that I moved to retail. So I worked for Ikea AC. And that was a complete total shift. I mean I wanted to to try working for some global global brand. But it is a retail retail industry. I mean, uh, and uh, I would say like what strikes me most when I came to Ikea is like it part because, you know, I was working for it. Okay. Telco. But telcFo is it at the end of the day company. And then it there was uh, really on a different level because it was a retail. It was, you know, although Ikea is also very strong in online. But at the end of the day, you know, we didn’t have all the data at one place like I, you know, used to have in telco industry. So for me, this was like a big shift in mindset to see, okay, here are these functions differently and how we can cope with that.

[00:40:49] Irena: Um, you know how how we can change some things. So I can give you like one example, um, Ikea family, the, the largest, uh, the largest, uh, loyalty club in the world, like, uh, back in the days you had when you apply for the for the club, you have to, you know, fill out like do you have a Balkan, do you have house or apartment. La la la. And then we changed that it it was also changed on the global level. But you know, you don’t have to ask those kind of things. You just need to look at the data because, you know, if he is a member, what the customer is buying and see, like is he buying like a four chairs or two chairs or, I don’t know, things like that. So you can make a you can make customer journey more easy, you know for the customers and learn about them on some other way. And then it was also what I wanted to I like to implement their what I learned before based look at the data that you have and make segments and make, you know, make some actions based on that so you don’t have to ask for a balcony, see if if customer was buying something for the balcony or I don’t know, for the kitchen and things like that. So, um.

[00:41:59] Egidijus: In this, in this place, uh, I want to thank you because I hate long surveys when you need to register somewhere. It’s like.

[00:42:10] Irena: A nonsense. We were lucky. Thank you. We were lucky in that period that also global from the global, you know, perspective, there were there were a lot of push like, uh, make it easier like cancel that because for I think we always need to ask ourselves like for every need for everything that we are asking customer to do. Is this necessary and do we really benefit from it? I mean, in all areas. So so it was like I was why we are asking them, you can see and for what you are using that. And at that moment it was used you know to because the Ikea have those workshops for some topics. So you can, you know, uh, make relevant workshops for the relevant customers based on their behavior, what they were buying. So, you know, it doesn’t matter if somebody told you that he has child, if he is buying something for the kid, maybe he is out or, you know, for some present, but he has a need for that category. So you know these kind of things.

[00:43:05] Egidijus: I assume that when you work, for example, in retail, like Ikea, there are a bit different personalization challenges. Like, I don’t know, you need to start taking into account strange things such as like stock levels, you know. Yes. And sensitive preferences and so on. It’s like, uh, probably a bit more challenging than in telco, you know.

[00:43:29] Irena: Yeah, it is. It is a it is a completely different story. Uh, and then you have to really be careful about that. And also uh, to uh, to be aligned with the commercial calendar. And this is basically the source of, of everything. And really to have one on one communication with the stores to see what are their plans, what they want to push, how can you support that? And also, yeah, for some, uh, collections, the stocks are really small. I mean, for example, I remember in Romania, like everybody knows who went to Romania, Ikea, that in the first week of Christmas collections, when it comes and it’s I will now maybe lie, but it’s like October or November, like really before Christmas. Everything goes out in a week or two. So you don’t even, you know, everything is because it’s usually people really like it and it’s and you don’t have even time to send like I cannot send newsletter for the Christmas in November, for example, you know. But everybody knows it because it is a really big fuss about it. So it is like what you are saying. You have to I mean, it’s common things. Nothing. Uh, nothing too too specific.

[00:44:37] Egidijus: Uh, yeah. Yeah, I understand because like, you know, in telco you have like, I don’t know, ten, 20 different products to sell and you usually don’t think about the stock of the price plans, you know.

[00:44:49] Irena: And yeah, I would say. I can give you one example from early in my career, we did one promotion like, uh, on a, on a net voice. People from telco will understand. But on net voice really ridiculous price. And then we had guys from network coming like marketing. You are crazy. Like people will talk and they will crash on network. Of course it did not didn’t happen. Although the price was, I think we put it maybe even 0 or 1 one dinner, I don’t remember, but we had to align almost every day around because it was some Christmas promotion like. But of course everything went smoothly and it was, it was great. Uh, it was really great. But you also have to be careful when you do some something of like that. Crazy promotions, how it will impact the network. So yes.

[00:45:35] Irena: How you will impact the network call center and, and points of sale. Yeah.

[00:45:40] Egidijus: Yes. Yeah.

[00:45:41] Irena: Usually nobody complains when when the sales, uh, goes like high. And I’m kidding now, but it’s, it’s a good problem to have. I like I like to say that.

[00:45:51] Egidijus: Yeah. So, uh, we will start moving to our wrap up part. And for every, um, guest, we have a list of questions that we want to ask. So question number one is about the proudest moment in your career. You know, could you share, uh, um, your own one?

[00:46:17] Irena: Yeah. Well, um, proudest moments. I mean, uh, I don’t know, I have maybe a list of smaller, like, moments when I was proud. I don’t know, uh, when I was proudest. It is. I remember when I finished one big project, I was it was early in my career, and, you know, the whole organization could see the benefits. Uh, you know, we saw the results very fast. So it was good. But I think it is a common thing that everybody feels proud. But I like to say, because, you know, you I worked 18 years or even more. Uh, so I like to have, like, a path. Like a path where you are proud on a small things like not on a daily level, but, you know, uh, those kind of moments when we say like, like I was mentioning, we can do more in our organization. And then when some organizational part see, how can we bring value to them and to those are the kinds of moments when when we are proud. And I’m really proud also about my team and how we are functioning, because I really like to to see everybody contributes and to feel good there. So this kind of maybe smaller milestones, these are my happy moments or proud, proud moments. Um.

[00:47:30] Egidijus: So so you are searching for that kind of like, uh, like a Buddha, you know, so searching for happiness in small things, you know.

[00:47:38] Irena: It comes with age, with aging. Yeah. Maybe like ten years ago, I would probably answer completely different to these questions, but yes.

[00:47:50] Egidijus: Uh. The the other part is, uh, like, could you share your, um, uh, failure moments or lesson moments from your career?

[00:48:02] Irena: Yeah, well, I had a lot of some, I would say smaller failures when, you know, okay, of course, you learn something from them, like the example that I told you about the network and the network guys and the fear of crashing the network and everything like that. So we had some things. I had those kind of moments when you do something and you’re not sure how it will end, like, okay, it can be good, but it can be really bad for the customer or for the company. Of course, we had, you know, some some times when you send out the wrong communication to the wrong customer. Uh, but okay, you always know how to how to deal with it. I mean, at the end it is. Okay. Uh, but I don’t know, these kind of things, like I shared with with the network guys, we have a lot of, you know, now I’m laughing at that. But I remember those meetings when I was sitting with them and they were, like, not threatening, but like, oh, guys, are you normal? Like marketing? How? And we said, like, okay, but we cannot change nothing now. Everything is prepared like we are launching in a in a week, so things like that. Now I’m laughing. But at that time it was really serious. Like at least I felt it like that.

[00:49:05] Egidijus: Yeah, you were already thinking how to start programming and fix the network if it starts crashing. Yeah.

[00:49:13] Irena: Yes I could, I could only bring them food when they were, when they could improve something like I could help only in that way for those kind of questions yeah.

[00:49:24] Egidijus: Um, and what would be your learning resource, you know, in the CVM area? Because this is kind of this is not the thing that you learn in the university.

[00:49:35] Irena: Yes. I mean, for the CVM area, I don’t I mean, beside what you are doing, obviously I don’t I didn’t find any content. Uh, I find something on the LinkedIn or, you know, where people are sharing some articles and things like that, but some one source beside this I’m not aware, but, uh, you know, I think a lot of business podcasts is podcasts are good for the, you know, for for people who want to be in this area. Because I was talking earlier about the, for example, proposition customer needs. So my advice would be, you know, to try to think and to find some relevant, uh, podcasts in the area of marketing. I mean, I usually listen to some Serbian podcasts. I mean, maybe we can share later, but, uh, uh, and also I like to, to listen a lot of podcasts from psychology area but like business psychology. So Adam Grant, I like his rethinking uh, podcast. Uh, I would also recommend design thinking, uh, techniques. I know there are a lot of literature on that because now we are switching on this, let’s say customer journey perspective, and we are building our campaigns. So I think this is really, really great source of, uh, For techniques how to do it. So I don’t know these kind of things.

[00:50:57] Egidijus: And I have a bonus question for you as well. Uh, we, uh, kind of, uh, we are thinking about our role, what we do with the CVM stories and CVM body of knowledge, etc. and we kind of understood that what we want to do and what is our mission is to make a CVM profession famous, you know, so that it would be a normally recognized profession so that we would have more specialists in this area. And I have a question for you, Irena. Uh, how would you make CVM famous? You know what? What would you do in our case?

[00:51:35] Irena: Yeah, I don’t know. So the benefits of the of the CVM, like like you’re you’re doing that actually. But you know, I think because it is also our struggle and maybe battle in different companies when you are in this role, you know, people are usually not aware of it. What can you do actually for for a lot of things, you know. So usually how I battle these kind of things is show the benefit for them. Like what is what is there. What is there for you? How can I not help you? But how can we work together, you know, in order to, to to achieve these kind of goals. So what are the benefits?

[00:52:08] Egidijus: Okay.

[00:52:08] Irena: So, yeah, maybe I didn’t give you a concrete answer, but it is a some frame, is there?

[00:52:14] Egidijus: Uh, we need to to work on that further. You know, it’s it’s a long journey.

[00:52:20] Irena: Yes. Yeah I agree.

[00:52:22] Egidijus: So thank you for all your insights and the learnings that you shared today.

[00:52:33] Irena: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

[00:52:35] Exacaster: CVM stories is produced by Exacaster. We help companies take their customer value management to the next level. To stay updated on our latest episodes, subscribe to the podcast or sign up for an email newsletter at exacaster.com/cvmstories.

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